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Old 06-10-2001, 02:36 PM   #12
Shade of Carn Dm
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

[Revised by jallanite 2001.07.22 to add entries Gar Ainur and Nost-na-Lothion into &quot;Questionable Elvish&quot;.]

I've looked through the later part of &quot;The Fall of Gondolin&quot;, beginning from the point where &quot;Huor and His Coming to Gondolin&quot; ceases, and tried to find all name substitutions for an updated text. I've checked corresponding names appearing in QS77 with texts in the HoME series for preferrable forms. I have not bothered with &quot;Entries in the Name-list to the Fall of Gondolin&quot;.

Forms not listed here I believe can stand as given, including Rog (what would we change this to?) and Legolas Greenleaf (let the readers make of him what they will).


Bansil to Belthil per QS77.

Bronweg to Voronw. The Quenya form of his name is used throughout in QS and &quot;Huor and His Coming to Gondolin&quot;.

Cristhorn to Cirith Thoronath per QS77.

Erendel to Erendil per QS77 and LR.

Elfinesse to Elvenesse per Tolkien's general change of Elfin to Elven from earlier to later writings.

Fountain to Fountains in any reference to Ecthelion per QS77 and &quot;Huor and His Coming to Gondolin&quot;.

Gar Thurian to Garthoren per &quot;The Etymologies&quot; under 3AR-, section GARAT-. The text is:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> GARAT-** Q arta fort, fortress.* N garth : cf. Garth(th)oren 'Fenced Fort' = Gondolin*** distinguish Ardh-thoren = Garthurian.<hr></blockquote> Garthurian now has a different meaing as appears under the stem THUR- where it is an Ilkorin form and applies to Doriath, not Gondolin. The entry reads:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Cf. Ilk. Garthurian Hidden Realm (= Doriath), sc. gar-thurian; Noldorinized as Arthurien, more completely as Ar()*thoren*:* thoren (* thurena) pp. of thoro- fence [see 3AR].<hr></blockquote>So in the mature language system Gar Thurian or Garthurian is now a dialectical North Sindarin name for Doriath (with a proper Sindarin counterpart Ardh-thoren) and Garth(th)oren has taken its place as one of the by-names of Gondolin.

Glingol to Glingal per QS77.

Gondothlim to Gondolindrim per QS77.

Gondothlimbar to Gondothrimbar per &quot;The Etymologies&quot; under GOND-, this later form properly rendering the meaning 'City of the Dwellers in Stone' in Sindarin.

Inw to Ingw per QS77.

Isfin to Aredhel per QS77.

Kr to Tna Per QS77. In BolT Kor corresponds to both the later Tirion and Tna, being the name of both the city and the hill on which it stands. In the sole mention in &quot;The Fall of Gondolin&quot; it is the hill that is mean.

Lothengriol to Loth-a-ladwen per The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin in &quot;Poems Early Abandoned&quot; in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3).

Malkarauki to Valaraukar per &quot;Valaquenta&quot; published with QS77.

Meglin to Maeglin per QS77.

Melko to Morgoth per QS77. After BoLT, Tolkien almost never uses Melkor in narration of events following Fanor's invention of the name Morgoth, except in a back-reference to ancient times.

Noldoli to Noldor per QS77. Noldoli, though possibly still a valid form, is not used at all in QS77 or late Tolkien writings.

Orc/Orcs to Ork/Orks following Tolkien's stated preference and use in his latest writings.

Peleg to Huor per QS77 and &quot;Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin&quot;.

Place of the Gods to Place of the Ainur. Tolkien almost entirely drops &quot;Gods&quot; as a English translation in later writings. One would normally change &quot;Gods&quot; to &quot;Valar&quot;, but the Elvish form Gar Ainion specifically refers to the Ainur, that is, not just to the Valar but also to the Maiar and to the Ainur who remained outside E. The English translation should be equally wide. &quot;Place of the Holy Ones&quot; would be a full translation, but is perhaps too cumbersome.

Sorontur to Sorontar per &quot;The Etymologies&quot; (under THOR-, THORON-) and &quot;The Wanderings of Hrin&quot; in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11).

Thorndor to Thorondor per QS77 and LR.

Tumladin to Tumladen per QS77.


Amon Gwareth to Amon Gwared per The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), Part Two The Later Quenta Silmarillion, 12, &quot;Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin&quot;. Christopher Tolkien notes:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> To this my father made some corrections: Nivrost &gt; Nevrast as in the preceding chapters; Eryd Wethion &gt; Eryd Wethrin; Handir &gt; Huor (see above); and Amon Gwareth &gt; Amon Gwared.<hr></blockquote> Compare the similar and possibly related use of Echoriad instead of earlier Echoriath in &quot;The Wanderings of Hrin&quot;. This needs investigation.

Gnome/Gnomes to Elf/Elves or Noldo/Noldor. &quot;Gnomes&quot; was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general refenence to Elves would not fit, as in &quot;the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not.&quot; Then use Noldor.

Salgant to Talagand per &quot;The Eytmologies&quot;. Under the stem GAN-,GNAD-*'play (on stringed instrument)' which produces various forms meaning 'harp' or 'harp-playing', is found:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> talagant* harper* (* tyalagando),*cf. Talagant [&gt; ] of Gondolin [TYAL].<hr></blockquote>Under TYAL- 'play' is:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Cf. tyalagando = harp-player (Q tyalangan): N Talagand, one of the chiefs of Gondolin (see GAN).<hr></blockquote>
Chrstopher Tolkien adds a note to GAN-, GNAD-:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Talagant appears in no literary source, but cf. Salgant in the tale of The Fall of Gondolin, the cowardly but not wholly unattractive lord of the People of the Harp: II.*173, 190-1, etc.<hr></blockquote> Talagand was almost certainly Tolkien's planned replacement form for Salgant the lord of the People of the Harp.

Thornhoth to Thoronhoth. This latter is the probable correct Sindarin form.

Thorn Sir to Thoron Sr. This updates the two elements for the name from Gnomish to their QS77 and LR Sindarin forms, but I'm not sure the syntax of this later name is valid.


Bad Uthwen, the Elvish name of the &quot;Way of Escape&quot;. &quot;The Etymologies&quot; gives:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> BAT-* tread. * bta*: ON bata beaten track, pathway; EN bd.<hr></blockquote> But does Uthwen still exist in Sindarin in any form? If kept, it probably should appear as Bd Uthwen with the circumflex accent. Can be dropped as uncertain.

Gar Ainion. I originally thought to retain this. The logic was that Gar Lossion 'Place of Flowers' occurs as the Gnomish name of Alalminr, replacing an earlier Losgar. This would not necessarily mean Losgar was incorrect, rather that Tolkien had replaced one correct form with another using the same Elvish words, 'Flower-place' by 'Place of Flowers'. Since Losgar occurs in the later Silmarillion tradition as the name of the place where Fanor burned the ships, presumably gar is still valid Sindarin meaning 'place'.
However upon closer examination the later 'Losgar' cannot mean 'Flower-place' which would be Lothgar. If gar means 'place' still, it might mean 'Snow-place' or 'Snow-white place'. But I find nothing anywhere indicating what meaning Tolkien intended for this place-name, and the fact that the first element must now have a different meaning does not give me any confidence that the last element has the same meaning as in Gnomish.
Indeed from &quot;Etymologies&quot; from GAR-, listed under 3AR-, there is only Noldorin/Sindarin garo- , gerin I hold, have; garn 'own', property. Nothing indicating 'place', and no form gar. Accordingly should almost certainly be dropped. It only occurs twice, both times in apposition to &quot;the Place of the Ainur&quot;, so removal creates no problems

Gwarestrin. This must stand as there is nothing newer and nothing in published Sindarin corpus that helps in either determining its validity in Sindarin or in creating a possibly more correct Sindarin form. At least gwar- seems still valid as in Amon Gwareth/Gwared upon which Gondolin is built. Also valid is the stem TIR- which is contained in -estrin according to the explanation of the name in BoLT 1, Appendix.

Nost-na-Lothion. Translated 'Birth of Flowers'. In &quot;Etymologies&quot; under NO- 'beget' occurs Noldorin form noss 'house', example Nos Finrod 'House of Finrod'. In BolT*1 under Duilin, appears nos 'house' as well as related forms nosta- 'be born', nost 'birth; blood, high birth; birthday', and ns 'birthday'. Nost appears only in this citation and the name Nost-na-Lothion, none of the 'birth' forms appears later, so it is not at all clear that Tolkien would have considered it still valid. But no other words meaning &quot;born&quot; or &quot;birth&quot; are given by Tolkien, so this might still stand.

Tarnin Austa, the Elvish name for the festival &quot;Gates of Summer&quot;. Neither of the elements appears in extant later Sindarin. But there is also no conflict. (The place name Tarn Aeluin is a mixed form in which tarn is the English word meaning 'small mountain lake'.) Sindarin tarn meaning 'gate' might exist. Austa is not impossibly an alternate name for 'summer' alongside laer. Can be dropped as uncertain.

<u> TO BE DROPPED:</u>

Annon, found in the phrase &quot;for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old&quot;. At the least this should be changed to &quot;words of the prophecy of the North&quot;; or &quot;words of the prophecy of Annos&quot; if the place name Annos is to be retained from BoLT. Tolkien never mentions a prophecy of the Fall of Gondolin after BoLT, probably rejecting the motif that the fall of Gondolin by name was part of the prophecy. If the prophecy had been so specific, it is difficult to see why Turgon would be so stupid as to give the name Gondolin to his city.

Bablon, Ninwi, Trui, Rm found in the phrase: &quot;Nor Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor the towers of Trui, nor all the many takings of Rm that is greatest among Men.&quot; If we understand the account of the Fall of Gondolin to be taken from the Red Book, then it would have been written before Babylon was founded, even more, Nineveh, Troy, and Rome. Of course it is possible that this phrase could be a note added very long after the Third Age. The phrase might be changed to &quot;Not all the many takings of cities that were greatest among Men&quot;.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=>jallanit e</A> at: 7/22/01 3:07:14 pm
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