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Old 06-17-2001, 09:45 PM   #32
Shade of Carn Dűm
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Changes to my previous posting of names

I have edited my previous posting to include three forms accidently omitted: Indor to Galdor (a definite change), house of the Swan to House of Hador (a dubious change), and Lothlim to Lothrim (a dubious change), since it is better to have all this data in one place.

Explanation of Bronweg to Voronwë

The proper corresponding Sindarin form to Gnomish Bronweg is actually Bronwë per &quot;The Grey Annals&quot; §298, Commentary on &quot;The Grey Annals&quot; §257 in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11) and &quot;The Etymologies&quot; under BORÓN- and WEG-.

In the linguistic situation of the original &quot;Fall of Gondolin&quot; the Gnomish form must have been his &quot;real&quot; name at the time of the story: it is mentioned as his alternate name when he first appears, and the statement that he named himself as Bronweg at the gate of Gondolin simply recognizes that this would be the form of the name he must have used. It is as if I were writing an account of Christopher Columbus, mostly using that form of the name, but were to say at one point, &quot;He introduced himself as Cristobal Colon, a learned navigator, born in Genoa.&quot; But nothing indicates why in &quot;The Fall of Gondolin&quot; this Elf alone should be mainly called by his Qenya name.

In the Silmarillion and Annal texts covering the Tuor story, Tolkien switches to the form Bronweg &gt; Bronwë except for the very last revisions made after he had written &quot;Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin&quot;. These are found in &quot;The Grey Annals&quot; §257, §299, and there he reverts again to Voronwë and they in every other way follow all the innovations in &quot;Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin&quot;.

Has Tolkien now decided that Voronwë is truly his use name at the time of the tale? Perhaps he had already come to the conclusion, only recorded later, that in Gondolin the speaking of Quenya had been revived. Elenmakil, captain of the Guard, also bears a Quenya name. But Tolkien seems not to have intended to replace all the names with Quenya forms, for Ecthelion reappears from the old tale with a name that we can only interpret as Sindarin under the new linguistic background, and which is listed accordingly as Noldorin in &quot;The Etymologies&quot; under STELEG- and is also identified as Sindarin in a late note in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11) in the chapter &quot;Maeglin&quot; §4. The notes for the continuation of the tale also introduce Turgon, Idril and Maeglin by their normal Sindarin names.

But Voronwë seems very strongly presented as that Elf's use name in &quot;The Coming of Tuor to Gondolin&quot;. The actual form &quot;Voronwë&quot; appears first prophetically from Tuor's mouth and is used several times in the conversation with Elenmakil. A sudden change to Bronwë when the Elf names himself again at the gate of Gondolin would be very hard to account for. Either he should also name himself Voronwë at that point, or Voronwë in the conversations (conducted presumably in Sindarin) with Elenmakil should be changed to Bronwë).

What we can be certain of is that Voronwë was the form Tolkien decided in 1951 to use in the tale, that he kept to it afterwards, and it should be maintained unless extremely good cause can be found to change it. So leave it as Voronwë throughout.

Changes to be Made in &quot;Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin&quot;

Letter k in the phrase Anar kaluva tielyanna! and the name Elemmakil to be changed to c following JRRT's decision, after the writing of this manuscript but before actual publication of LR, to always use c in Elvish in Latin latter transcriptions of Elvish words and names (except it would seem for names of the Valar (Melkor, Tulkas, Kementári).

Echoriath to Echoriad per The War of the Jewels (HoME 10), &quot;The Wanderings of Húrin&quot;. Warning: I have NO explanation for this change!

Possibly remove the words I have underlined from the following passage:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> They are the folk of Thorondor, who <u>dwelt once even on Thangorodrim ere Morgoth grew so mighty, and</u> dwell <u>now</u> in the Mountains of Turgon <u>since the fall of Fingolfin</u>.<hr></blockquote>Christopher Tolkien has a note on this passage which concludes:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In all probability the conception of Thorondor's dwelling at first upon Thangorodrim, which is found also in an early Silmarillion text, was later abandoned.<hr></blockquote>In particular Christopher Tolkien points out that in the chapter &quot;Of the Ruin of Beleriand&quot; in QS77 Thorondor is already described as having &quot;his eyrie among the peaks of Crissaegrim&quot; when he rescues Fingolfin's body. Therefore, if Thorondor had changed his dwelling, it must have been before before Fingolfin's death, not after.

Also, at the beginning of the earlier chapter &quot;Of the Noldor in Beleriand&quot; there has been reference to the vale of Tumladen being surrounded by &quot;a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor.&quot; This suggests that even then Thorondor's eagles dwelt in those mountains. But perhaps only some did.

But before the breaking of the Siege and death of Fingolfin it is difficult to find any point where &quot;Morgoth grew so mighty&quot; that Thorondor felt he had best remove himself from Thangorodrim for that reason.

Thorondor might have moved after Dagor Agloreb, the Glorious Battle, which was indeed a great victory for the Noldor, but could have proved less happy for Thorondor when &quot;fire came from fissures in the earth, and the Iron Mountains vomitted flame.&quot;

We could restore the phrase &quot;dwelt once even on Thangorodrim&quot; and the word &quot;now&quot; and leave vague when and why Thorondor changed his dwelling.

That is currently my preference on the principle that if you don't have to remove it, then keep it.

In note 13 to &quot;Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin&quot; Christopher Tolkien notes that his father had indicated elsewhere that Turgon maintained a secret refuge on the Island of Balar, but later rejected that idea. The reason for this note is Voronwë's account that Turgon had sent a few folk to Sirion's mouth who had built some ships and established lonely dwellings on the Isle of Balar.

But there is actually no contradiction here. Though JRRT rejected the idea that Turgon founded a permanent refuge on Balar and that Círdan's people later mingled with Turgon's people there, none of his published writings oppose a settlement on Balar during Turgon's failed attempt to build seaworthy ships. That is all that Voronwë's account mentions. He says nothing that even suggests that the settlement was more than temporary. The reference should be kept unchanged.

I would personally like to add from the primtive &quot;Fall of Gondolin&quot; a phrase which I italicize to one of the sentences in &quot;Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin&quot; as follows:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then he took up his rugged harp of wood and the sinews of bears which he bore ever with him, being skilled in playing upon its strings, ...<hr></blockquote>There may be other such phrases from the primitive account which contradict no later details and that it would be a shame to lose.

Comments on Changing and Retaining Names

In &quot;The Shibboleth of Fëanor&quot; in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), Note 30, Tolkien explains that Ingoldo was the mother-name of both Finarfin and Finrod and then continues:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The name spread from his kin to many others who held him in great honour, especially to Men (the Atani) of whom he was the greatest friend among the Eldar.<hr></blockquote>This provides a precedent for reuse of other names to set against Tolkien's claim that it would not be credible for there to be two separate Elves named Glorfindel ( ibid. &quot;Glorfindel&quot. Christopher Tolkien also records on the Glorfindel comment that his father in a later note questioned his conclusion that reuse of the name would not be credible.

So Legolas can stay as Legolas. Changing the name to a variant form is too obviously a silly trick, unless someone can demonstrate it is the form that Tolkien would have changed it to. And I don't think we have the right to make such changes without authorization or some kind of analogical indication that the new form is more correct. Dropping the name and making the Elf anonymous, or dropping the passages in which he appears, would be more in line with the idea that this project is not to create new material. But I don't see any need to drop Legolas or to change his name. There is no actual conflict, whether he is taken to be the same or different from the Legolas son of Thranduil.

As to Rog, the final 1930 version of Tolkien's Silmarillion account of the Fall of Gondolin as published in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), &quot;Quenta&quot;, §16, contains the passage:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Of the deeds of desperate valour done there, by the chieftains of the noble houses and their warriors, and not least by Tuor, is much told in The Fall of Gondolin; of the death of Rog without the walls; and of the death of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of the king, ...<hr></blockquote>.
In BoTL 2, &quot;The Fall of Gondolin&quot;, Commentary (v), The array of the Gondothlim, Christopher Tolkien remarks in a footnote:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I removed the reference to Rog ( The Silmarillion p.*242) on the grounds that it was absolutely certain that my father would not have retained this name as that of a lord of Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>I also guess JRRT would have changed it. I equally guess he would have changed much else as evidenced by how much he changed the tale of Tuor's coming to Gondolin. But to take this tack means it is impossible to include anything.

So, keep Rog, both name and deeds. The readers to this composite Silmarillion know they are reading a composite work. At least let it be as full as it can be with as many details as can possibly be kept.

Christopher Tolkien again and again in HoME speaks of his regrets in making too many changes in The Silmarillion text for reasons of style or consistency. To remove the one mention of Rog from the short summary of The Fall of Gondolin was unimportant. To remove him, the first to ever slay a Balrog, from the full Fall of Gondolin is a major excision. I suppose he could simply be named as the Lord of the Hammer.

But without evidence, we don't actually know that JRRT would have changed that name.

Again, should not the rule be when in doubt keep it? Otherwise almost everything will be jettisoned.

On Mechanical Dragons

The final 1930 Silmarillion version of Tolkien's account of the Fall of Gondolin as published in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), &quot;Quenta&quot;, §16, contains the passage:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and he loosed upon Gondolin his Orcs and his Balrogs and his serpents; and of these, dragons of many and dire shapes were new devised for the taking of the city.<hr></blockquote>Christopher Tolkien in his notes on this passage remarks:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the reference to the 'devising' (rather than 'breeding') of new dragons by Morgoth for the assault on the city there is even a suggestion of the (apparently) inanimate constructions of the Tale (see II.213).<hr></blockquote>In QS77 this becomes (emphasis mine):<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and he loosed upon Gondolin his Balrogs, and his Orcs, and his wolves; and with them came dragons of the brood of Glaurung, and they were become now many and terrible.<hr></blockquote>I cannot find textual justification for these changes in HoME. This may be simply rewriting as Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay imagined JRRT might have done.

Can anyone find firm textual support for these changes?

Inclusion of the poem &quot;The Horns of Ylmir&quot;

As it stands it would need major fan-fiction style rewriting or dropping of lines, as Tuor in the original story and the poem encounters Ulmo in the summer in the marshes of the Land of Willows where he is first enchanted by inland musics and then by Ulmo's music. In the later story it is on the seacoast by Vinyamar at the approach of winter and Ulmo plays no music.

And there are other differences. Including much of the poem is going to be very difficult.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=>jallanit e</A> at: 6/18/01 7:19:35 pm
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