[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1507
many many balrogs

Many Many Balrogs

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

When (or if?) HerenIstarion gets around to posting what Bob has given him we can see what Bob is implying then (and accept or tear it apart as needed)

I apologise if my absence caused any inconvenience. In several spots here I seem to be summoned to judge delicate matters in which I must confess, I lack great amount of knowledge, Yet, never claiming the role of a jury here, I may submit my own opinion, which, was of course influenced by Bob’s ideas (which were quiet new to me, yet which, nevertheless, are worth listening and worth thinking over), but I can get more or less logical basis under them, I deem, even if some of these may seem mere speculation. Yet, I always had a notion that professor himself worked 50/50, using both his previous materiel (or, a scientifically, “evidence”), as well as intuition in using, reconciling or even rewriting this “evidence”. If the thing “ringed true”, it took place in the Legendarium. Thing certainly rings true (to me)


1) Seven + Many

After such a prologue, I’m still at a loss were to begin . Maybe, I’m even late, for Bob almost answered all the requests. But I still would add my portion into the boiling soup in this pot. Here we have again the passage from Silm77, quoted in this thread several times. I for myself used it in my first post here, yet I must admit my opinion changed since then I will repeat it, highlighting important places (for indeed the passage bears great importance):

Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwë and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

It follows, some of the spirits were seduced by Morgoth in the “days of his greatness” – when was this? – the original greatness of Melko was expressed in the Music, when some of 'co-singers' were drawn to his side. It may be assumed (speculation of course, with no textual evidence, but still…), than increasingly discussed 7 “great” Balrogs may have been seduced there.

Here I must take a step aside for a while.

Before Arda we have certain spirits, and, even they differ by their names, I always had a feeling that the order to which the all belong, make them equal in status, if not in rank. (Ëalar)

After creating Arda some of them enter it to be distinguished by their names, yet their nature remains the same – Valar (called so for their power, and being Powers of the World) and Maiar (less powerful, but beautiful, called so for their beauty) yet, both, Valar as well as Maiar, are Ëalar – spirits not embodied, and, au contraire Fëar, spirits incarnate, having hröar (i.e. Children)

But the names Maiar and Valar apply to the function the bearers of them accomplish. The spirits on the other side, being of the same order, yet exercising opposite functions, are defined by adding prefix U before the name of a function of spirits named above. That gives us Umaiar – Not-Maiar, Maiar-doing-opposite-things. For Valar there is only one equal opponent – Morgoth – Black Enemy of The World (having Valar as Powers of the World, it makes more evident the opposition of name of a function) So, we can easily call the 7 “great Balrogs” Umaiar, and that will not in a least break the rule. Or, according to the passage, spirits that remained with him till the days of his fall, spirits able to exercise the same rank of functions as Melkor/Morgoth himself, even if with less intensity.

Then we have “spirits corrupted afterwards”. If we weigh wording carefully, this without trace of a doubt, means “after the days of his greatness”. When are the days of his greatness ended? I will be bold enough to suppose his 'greatness' was 'ending' in two steps - first when he was driven forth by Tulkas, and that stage prolonged till his captivity in the end of the war of Powers, in which his last “host of balrogs“ was destroyed (“the Annals of Aman”) But who are those balrogs (for I don’t think it necessary to omit the great passage of balrogs assailing the standard of Manwe), which are so easily withered in Manwe’s wrath? Spirits corrupted afterwards, and, as elves just awoke, and there is no trace of men yet, we must assume them to be some other ëalar, but of lesser strength and not opposed in function to Maiar, so there is no need to consider them as Umaiar, yet rather than opposite to those spirits which incarnate Eagles, Ents and so on. If I were allowed to use invented term, I would rather call them Ulëalar.

That’s very well, you may think, yet why calling them balrogs at all, than?

Return to the passage once more – “Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.”

Valaraukar – 'Mighty Demons' (Or 'Demons of Terror') certainly means 7 great ones, yet translation “balrog”, applied to those in ME, is not literal:

ÑGWAL- torment. Q ungwale torture; nwalya- to pain, torment; nwalka cruel. N balch cruel; baul torment, cf. Bal- in Balrog or Bolrog [RUK], and Orc-name Boldog = Orc-warrior ‘Torment-slayer’ (cf. NDAK).

Not only 'mighty', but 'tormenting' spirits. One can apply such a term even to one’s own not so pleasant neighbour, disturbing one’s sleep by night with some naughty noisy behaviour.

That, speculatively, gives us 7 Valaraukar proper, and indefinite number of other Balrogs (tormenting spirits), which are more than orks (not including Ainu orcs, see the definitions here[link lost in the migration to UBB - H-I], but less than 7 great ones and more easily destructible. Them being lesser than Umaiar does not abolish their 'fiery' nature, as opposed to the ëalar of the “good” attitude, such as eagles of Manwe, or some free agents, not directly obeying, yet more or less loyal to Valar (Bombadil, Goldberry (direct opposition – fire/water). Having the same inherent power of Fire as the great Valaraukar, they may easily be confused by the elves (who haven’t seen the thing but yet the whole Silm is the elvish point of view on the history of the world) with the Valaraukar proper. That partly answers the argument of Legolas' and Gandalf's reaction of 'ai, ai, Balrog' scene – for Legolas any fire spirit is balrog, and even if it is not a Valarauko, it is the thing which was before Arda, and therefore beyond the match of any mortal or immortal Child, Gandalf – or, rather, Olorin, is a Maia, and (speculation again, yet why not?) can distinguish what a Balrog “proper” is. Such 'Ulëalar' Balrogs may have been destroyed in the War of Powers, and leave 7 Valaraukar unharmed to have their whole company in action at Gondolin.

Yet I mantioned two falls of Melkor/Morgoth, and must go back to the second fall now. The second fall is much more important for the theory. Now Melkor 'really' falls, and becomes irredeemable, in fact, becomes 'Anti-Vala' only after killing of Trees of Valinor. This is marked with the change of his name from Melkor to Morgoth, and his loss of ability to change his shape. From now on his lust to have others under his will is irresistible, and among the 'other spirits corrupted afterwards' most desirable are Children of Eru. What it has to do with Balrogs? It is mostly concerned with them (and I see it now, thanks to Bob Wehadababyitsaboy:

THE LAY OF THE
CHILDREN OF HURIN

but Bauglir said: 'O bravest of Men,
'tis fate unfitting for thus fellhanded
warrior warfain that to worthless friends
his sword he should sell, who seek no more
to free him from fetters or his fall avenge.
While shrinking in the shadows they shake fearful
in the hungry hills hiding outcast
their league belying, lurking faithless,
he by evil lot in everlasting
dungeons droopeth doomed to torment
and anguish endless. That thy arms unchained
I had fainer far should a falchion keen
or axe with edge eager flaming
wield in warfare where the wind bloweth
the banners of battle -- such a brand as might
in my sounding smithies on the smitten anvil
of glowing steel to glad thy soul
be forged and fashioned, yea, and fair harness
and mail unmatched -- than that marred with flails
my mercy waiving thou shouldst moan enchained
neath the brazen Balrogs' burning scourges:
who art worthy to win reward and honour
as a captain of arms when cloven is mail
and shields are shorn, when they shake the hosts
of their foes like fire in fell onset.
Lo! receive my service; forswear hatred,
ancient enmity thus ill-counselled --
I am a mild master who remembers well
his servants' deeds. A sword of terror
thy hand should hold, and a high lordship
as Bauglir's champion, chief of Balrogs,
to lead o'er the lands my loud armies,
whose royal array I already furnish;
on Turgon the troll (who turned to flight
and left thee alone, now leaguered fast
in waterless wastes and weary mountains)
my wrath to wreak, and on redhanded
robber-Gnomes, rebels, and roaming Elves,
that forlorn witless the Lord of the World

Chief of Balrogs

That offers something to 'mull over', does not it?

I really doubt the Balrogs 'proper' (that is, Valaraukar) would bear a mortal, even that it was Hurin, 'mightiest of Men' as their Lord. More logical it seems to me that this offer meant lordship over some other balrogs (= Tormenting Spirits)

But to draw a parallel of such balrogs with Balrogs proper, they must resemble each other. That is easily explained in the pre-children period – when lesser balrogs are formed by 'fiery ëalar'. After the second fall of Melkor/Morgoth, the ranks of Balrogs are supplied from different origint (Children) I think Bob won't mind if I give a citation from his letter to me

Originally Posted by Bob Wehadababyitsaboy

Is it possible or even probable that Melkor (as a
master of the matter of Arda - where he had placed a significant portion of himself) be able to 'alter' the appearance of 'followers' to the super-soldier
description given of Balrogs (or as you say; a change of his hroa (or body)). All this assumes that Balrogs could be 'found' rather than the automaton ancestry
they sprang from.

That explains why balrogs, presumably destroyed in the war of Powers, are present again in the Siege of Angband, when:

Grey Annals:

But even as the vanguard of Maidros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs a thousand, and there came worms and drakes, and Glaurung, Father of Dragons. And the strength and terror of the Great Worm were now grown great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maidros and Fingon and swept them apart

But Morgoth’s ability to produce new balrogs certainly diminished after a time, as he spent his power.


2) Wings? no Wings?

Would the changing of hröa of new made Balrog end in him acquiring wings? That is a painful question, and a “hardtalk” occurred several times about this topic, which is to much of quoting to repeat. Check it out around the Downs in manyfold threads

3) Theology and Tolkien

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious, not being a practising Christian, but what does this have to do with Tolkien? Was your original reference (something about a third of heaven) something to do with the Silmarillion or merely an analogy that went right over my head?

I have a strong notion that one of the aspects of the Tolkien’s work is that, besides other great virtues, it is somehow a retelling of Christian Legend, which Professor himself called 'sub-creation'. That is why I rather picture him as Aulë when the dwarves were offered to Eru, than any other of his characters. Some aspects were discussed and may be checked here[link lost in the migration to UBB - H-I]

Yes, Tolkien disliked allegory, yet he used it, when it was somehow 'direct' allegory (cf Leaf by Niggle – the whole peive is an allegory!

But I deem it’s time to finish – I’m the hell tired of typing.

You have the speculation. You are entitled to 'tear it up' as necessary