[Findegil]

About the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text': Aiwendil, your are a moderator of this forum. Since there is nothing in that thread that would merrit its hiding in privat forum, can you move to it this forum?

FG-C-22: Aiwendil your last proposal seems okay to me. But I wonder why you used 'sit' in line 2? I thought that we had agreed on 'sing', because any other verb would mean to invent a fact in Middle-earth.

FG-T-24: Gondowe, as far as I know we did not take up the sentence 'Great is the fall of Gondolin' into words reported in our text of the prophecy of the north. This does of course not mean that they were not included in the actual words, since the passage 'many woes it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them' has room enough.

When Ulmo speaks to Tuor at Vinyamar he uses Melkor in all cases, therefore I think Tuor should use the name Melkor, while he spoke the message of Ulmo.

What shades some doubts on Ulmo asking Turgon to go against Angband is this unanswered question of Tuor:

‘Then shall Turgon not stand against Morgoth, as all the Eldar yet hope?’ said Tuor.

Anyhow, I think the passage should read thus:

FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>

FG-D-02, -04 & -29: Well, I can in the end live without all these changes. So I would much prefer to have FG-D-29. But thinking about it again, we also here from Glaurung and Smaug that they were exhausted after battles and retreated to sleep.

FG-C-03: Why should the men not shudder at the pronaunciation of the King of Gondolin that their city is lost? What about:

Then said the king: FG-C-03 KO 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', and men shuddered{, for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...

By the way, Aiwendil, do you remember what KO did mean?

FG-C-26: Posted by Aiwendil:

I cannot remember whether Tolkien ever uses the term 'delta' with respect to a river, which is why I preferred 'mouth'.

True. I agree to take 'the isle at the mouth of Sirion'. I also agree to the change the historical present.

Respectfully
Findegil