[Aiwendil]

Finwe wrote:

For the Green-elf situation, couldn't we just mention a small band of them with Beren? That way, both their aid is mentioned, and the fact that they were a sort of organized band, under Beren's leadership.

This is one possibility - that is, to assume that there were Green-elves but that they were not numerous enough to be an "army". Personally, I would go this way; I don't think that the reference in Letters is sufficient evidence that the Green-elves were dropped.

As we can see, in both cases, the outlaws die by cause of the curse of the Gold.

Yes. This is a good point.

Maedhros wrote:

If we keep their faith uncertain, we move IMO, away from the core of the Story.

But if their fate is made sufficiently ambiguous, who is to say whether they escaped the curse or not?

We are engaged in a sort of surgery upon the narrative. No matter what we do, we cannot preserve every nuance, every subtlety of the Lost Tales. It is, of course, preferrable to preserve what we can; but there must be some casualties, and I fear that the specifics of the working of the curse upon the outlaws may be one of them.

Now CT believes that as we have done, we have reintroduced the outlaws in the tale, but if they were not killed either in Nargothrond or while bearing the treausure, would they have left the halls of Thingol without a fight. Would they then, have been free of the curse of Mîm.

Possibly. I see no reason to think that the curse of Mim is absolutely inevitable. But if we do not specify the fate of the outlaws, then we retain the possibility that the curse did somehow find them.

I think Christopher is right that, had "Wanderings" gotten as far as Doriath, the fight in the caves would not have reappeared.

Findegil wrote:

I have to look that up. What I wrote was the impression left in my memory and could be wrong. At least it could be to specific - the indication that JRR Tolkien was not satisfaid by the version of Q30 could have been a large X on the text or a "that won't do". But even that is not sure. I will search for it.

Okay. In any case, I think that whoever said it is right; it does ruin the gesture and almost certainly it would have been altered in a more ample account.

That is clearly a weak spot. But I think it is more probable that Húrin left them a second time, as he had done to find Gondolin, other than the outlaws by thier own forswear the treasure.

So you think that the outlaws were more likely to give up the treasure in order to follow Hurin than to give it up afterward? I can see the logic there, though I don't think I fully agree.

The addition I had to make with out source is beyond what you normaly call "minimal change", so it was much less heavy than I had feared for. As we already thought, it is a risky course. I could have cut more of the scene and aviode the change of Thingol stopping the dissension. But I like the working of crouse upon Elves in the hall.

As I said before, it's a nice solution. But if they are to die in quarrels after leaving Menegroth, then what can be the cause of those quarrels? They could no longer be fighting over the gold. And in that sense, it is not really Mim's curse that kills them; elsewhere the curse always manifests itself as a desire for the gold which leads to ruin.

Also, as we already acknowledged, the change is risky - perhaps a bit too risky. Remember, how severe an editorial change is doesn't always correspond simply to how many words were altered. In terms of plot, this is a major change with little textual support.

In addition I like to mention, that I can't think that a man like Asgon took part in the events in Thingols hall. It is clearly not Asgon how speaks to the king of Húrin as a "old and mad" man. That words sound more like Ragnir. The young man how is the opponent of Asgon in the conversations when the band is searching Húrin.

This is one of the chief reasons that I think the old fight would have been changed. It is almost impossible to picture Asgon acting this way, curse or no curse. He is portrayed as far too reasonable a figure. It is also very difficult to picture the later Elves of Doriath falling so easily into savagery. The later conception of the Sindar is very different from that presented here. In the old tale, Doriath was a far more primitive, naturalistic place.

So I really think that the fight in Menegroth is out of place in the more mature Silmarillion.

It would be very nice to find a way, to make Asgons fate dubious, but in the moment I can't see any solution within the rules of the project. (In my privat view he is the comunicater of parts of the Narn.)

I have also speculated that some of those outlaws might have made their way to the havens and been the source for parts of the Narn.

It would, I think, be far preferrable to leave the fate of the outlaws uncertain. There are actually several ways to do this; the problem that I see with these ways is that none is quite uncertain enough to cover the wide range of reasonable fates. I will give this matter some thought.