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Old 09-25-2015, 08:16 AM   #168
Findegil
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Join Date: Jul 2002
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Okay, reading some of the older postings brougth mer back into this discussion. May be summary is agian needed:
- At first Maedhros, Aiwendil agreed not to take up the counsel of Ulmo that Turgon should wage a war against Morgoth. I consented to this but with reservations.
- Later Aiwendil found that probably the urging to prepare for a war should be included, but gondowe had joined the group and had some reservations about that. So my Feeling from the arguemnts of gondowe is that he is more concerned with the importance of parts of the counsel then with leaving the war out completly.
- Now Arvegil145 has joined and is for including the counsel of war.

So at least we have overcome the patt situation.

It seems to me that we all agree now to Ulmo asking Turgon to prepare for war, even so that might not be the most important part of the message.

But going back to my own counsel to work with arguments based on supporting textual evidence:
The pricipals say that the younger the text, the more wigth it should have, so we might start with the passage in Grey Annals were Ulmo speaks to Turgon. Ulmo clearly warns Turgon that Gondolin will not stand for ever against Melkor, because of the Doom of Mandos. And that if the time come near that he will send Tuor. This seems to me the strongest support for gondowe's point of view, that the main motive of Ulmos counsel is to remove the Gondolidrim from the city.
In the speach form Ulmo to Tuor we hear that Tuor sword is worth sending, which I would call a support for a forseen warlike out come by Ulmo.
Later when Tuor speaks to Voronwë he Shows knowledge of the conversation between Ulmo and Turgon, that only the Gondolindrim (and Ulmo of course) had. I think from this Christopher Tolkien took the idea for Sil77 of recalling the Ulmo's words in Tuor meassage 'And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish' and in Turgons pondering 'and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar ...'.
When Ulmo revales to Turgon, that their is no hope in the war against Melkor with out the help from the west, than this can only mean:
- Had Turgon followed the biding of Ulmo (what ever that had included), the out come would have been better then what is seen at the end of the 1. Age. (Other wise the biding would be sensless.)
- Anyhow the overcome of Melkor would only be contrived with the help from the west.
- So what ever exactly Ulmo asked Turgon to do, it would not have avoided the destruction/derssertion of Gondolin it would have changed the War of Wrath and ist out come.

From the early source Prose fragment of the Tale of Tuor [HoME IV; chapter 1;i] we learn that, Ulmo proberbly did know that only a messager speaking in person for the Noldor and pleading for pardon would change the mind of the Valar and bring them to aid the people of Middle-earth against Melkor (This I have denied in previous posting, but I now see that I might have been wrong.) Thus I agree to gondowe that bring about the birth of Earendil was the most important intention of Ulmo's dealing with Tuor and Turgon. That this motive was still valid might be guesses from the persage of Huor and the vision of Cirdan about the rising star.
Thus if Ulmo ask Turgon to send again messangers to Valinor after he removed from Gondolin, he is speaking of Earendil and nobody else.

But again, if Turgon ist asked to do something by Ulmo the achievement of that deed must have be benevolent in some way.
With this input what might have been the result if Turgon would have followed (this is spectlaution only but it might help to understand my point of view):
- Turgon starts to perpare his folk to leave Gondolin
- Tuor stays for a time an fathers Earendil.
- Turgon starts to make alliances with all Elves left in Beleriand.
- They remove from Gondolin before it is attaced.
- Tuor is sent to the east an gather Men to the help in the battle to come.
- With the intact force of Gondolin at the mouth of Sirion and allainces fromed between Turgon and Maedhros the third kin-slain would have been impossible.
- Earendil would in the end have been reached Valinor (probably later, after taking his wife and the Silmaril onto his ship, only because she would no longer stay alone at home).
- War of Wrath with the help of Men from the East, the Gondolindrim from the south and probably the Feanorian from the south-west. => Melkors Forces completly destroyed.

With that in mind, it would be most important to leave Gondolin before the attac, because otherwise (as is seen in FoG) Earendil is in danger of being killed and with him the sole hope of secure for the Elves of Beleriand.

Now all this rambling leads in my mind at least to the follwoing outline:
- Tuor bides Turgon to abandon Gondolin, search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if only that course is taken) and bides Turgon farther to prepare for the War against Morgoth to come.
- Tuor speaks about the means by which that war should be prepared (alliance with the Men of the east build by the help of Tuor after a time of abiding in Gondolin and alliance with the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo, but in the end only archivable through a messanger from the Gondlindrim [Earendil]) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
- When Tuor Ends his speach the mantle of Ulmo desapears.
- Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it.
- Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.
- Idril and the wiser councilors are troubled that Turgon did not follow the biding.

Is that helpfull?

Respectfully
Findegil
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