Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
I agree very much with your interpretation of the Curse, but I would argue that there is no good choice for Turin - or very few. He tries to save a woman from rape (good, right?), ends up killing his captain (maybe not much of a loss, but still bad). He rescues Niniel (good, who would leave a woman in that state?), but marries his sister (bad! - and she would have remembered anyways when Glaurung died, regardless of how he died, I think that's implied in the text).
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I deliberately didn't talk about his bandits, because... well... he made the decision to throw in with a group of outlaws. And that's not outlaw like 'Beren was an outlaw, being hunted by the local power, namely Sauron' - it's outlaw like 'let's rob, rape, and ruin the local humans for our own benefit'. Remember their response to Mim, which is to shoot (to kill!) at him and his sons, then take over their house? It's nice that he tried to lead them away from that, but the whole thing was one long string of bad decisions. (The wiki also suggests that Turin wouldn't have killed Forweg had he known it was him, so, y'know, don't give him
too much credit.)
As for Niniel... when someone comes to you with literally no memory of anything, and you take personal care of them in restoring them to adult functioning, it seems pretty obvious that they're going to effectively imprint on you. I'm not sure how much this is the case (the wiki pretty much claims the women of Brethil + Brandir were responsible for her care), but if it is, asking someone who's that dependent on you to marry you is actually kinda skeevy.
But yes: Turin's decisions surrounding Nienor were actually good, knowing what he knew. Had he not gotten himself knocked out, he could have faced real consequences that
weren't his fault...
... because they were his sister's. She's under Morgoth's curse too, and her mind-wiping came about because she tried to take on a dragon face to face. That was
her bad decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
I think Turin's fate is also in part due to his inability to keep his head down; he cannot be a lesser man than he is. He tries to start fresh time and time again, but he cannot be less than what he can. Did he have a position or an honour that he didn't deserve? No. He really deserved all, he was that good, and he couldn't suppress the effort in himself. All he had to do was be second best, settle down, let someone else make the calls. But he had to fight to his full potential, had to live to his full potential, take charge of his own life - Master his Fate, be the one who makes the calls of his life rather than letting it flow where it would by the choices of other men. Only with the Curse, as you said, do all your efforts - which are good efforts! - turn everything around them sour. Turin's choices and behaviours aren't always great, but they often make a lot of sense in the context of what he knows. There are many other people who also aren't your perfect goody-two-shoes, but no one is as unlucky as Turin.
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I'm not sure I agree. Turin was great at getting people to follow him, but abysmally terrible at choosing where to lead them. The outlaws died because Turin led them to camp with someone who utterly hated them; Nargothrond died because he preferred open battle to stealth. The one time people
refused to follow him, his attack on Glaurung was 100% successful.
A charismatic, brave, and strong leader who leads you into disaster every time sounds like one of the worst things you could have, actually.
hS