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Old 06-07-2001, 01:41 AM   #6
Seeker of the Straight Path
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Re: A project ? - revising the Fall of Gondolin

Aiwendil posted:

And how will it be decided into which of the above categories
each of us falls?
Lindil: by each person.
a side note to clear any confusion that may exist or arise: unfortunately I wear the dual hats here of moderator and participant, oftimes chief instigator [by default - not design]. But in terms of any group project[s] I am a reg. joeseph schmo! no one will be banished from the group or slandered because I don't agree or some such.

Aiwendil posted:I'd be interested in contributing somehow - I'd
be glad to write a portion of it, if my services are required, and
a full vote would be most appreciated.

lindil: your on. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Aiwendil posted:
As for how to integrate UT with II: I don't think it's necessary
to alter any of the &quot;later Tuor&quot;; I would have a mild objection to
that on the principle that it was his latest writing on the
subject, and is fully consistent with the rest of the Silm. canon.

lindil: I was not suggesting it [altering the UT Tuor] I did mention that work will have to be done to meld the transition of later Tuor into 77/IV/II in the delivering of the message as we have scraps of notes and full versions w/ much conflict of details.So something will have to give here , I have not studied that particular transition enough to offer a guess yet, but I imagine that transition will be darn near the first order of business.

Aiwendil posted: I agree that II can be brought into harmony with it, but I think
it will require a little more tinkering than just updating names
and eliminating mechanical dragons and such.

Lindil: &quot; and such &quot; is the operative phrase covering alot of possibilities.As we see from the posts following yours aiwendil there are already differences apparent in how to treat the Lost Tales material.

Aiwendil posted:I too have given this some thought; it seems to me that one of
the weakest links is right at the point of transition from UT to
11. To begin with, we have not only a huge gap in style, but
also a huge gap in fullness of the narrative. As detailed a story
as FoG is, it is not as detailed as the later Tuor. Complicating
the matter a little is the existence of a few notes on the
continuation of the narrative in UT.

Lindil: agreed - see above.
jallanite posted:

I don't think the archaic language in the Lost Tales
version of the Fall of Gondolin should be altered. Rather,
start a new chapter at that point.

A scribe is now introducing into the work a different
source, one more archaic, the old classic Fall of Gondolin
which cannot be touched.
lindil : that certainly is one approach. I am still at this point leaning towards de-emphasizing the archaisms as much as possible w/in the confines of the working rules, as they to my mind distract one from the tale at this point being rather jarring after the very polished UT Tuor.Much will inevitably remain certaainly enough to tell it is from a more archaic source. and a series of numbers w/in the chapters to differentiate the major sections/stylistic changes might well be a useful thing.
I propose that we will all [who wish that lvl of involvement that is] have to come up w/ some examples of what we mean , I think and then vote on the way we want to handle the II material .
jallanite posted:
The mechanical dragons unfortunately are part of the
very life of the Fall of Gondolin, one of its points of
distinction. Removing them would gut the work. I can see
changing them to real dragons in a few cases.

Lindil: agreed w/ changing them to real dragons when possible

Jallanite continues:But leave
the style of the story alone!. There's no point in letting
consistancy of style and coherence with the rest of the
work reduce such good writing and a unique vision to
watered-down blandness. This is the real thing, not to be
thrown away because of tension with some summaries,
or because some editor cannot appreciate Tolkien's style
here. Changes should be minimal.

The multitude of Balrogs isn't hard to manage, though. In
most cases they can be replaced by a single Balrog at the
point in the tale with no harm to the account.

Lindil: agreed on the Balrogs [I think! <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ] I am sure some Balrog scholars will have much more to say about their numbers and such.
Re: style and how much to save and use and how much to cut, as I said above, that will have to be a point of serious discussion and compromise or consensus.

Jallanite continues: A major problem is the mention of Legolas, since we are
elsewhere told Elves do not reuse names. He actually
could be the Legolas of The Lord of the Rings. Not that I
believe it. Galdor can be the Galdor of the Havens in The
Lord of the Rings with no problems.

lindil: I wonder wether we can use a quenya version of Legolas. Galdor I can live with he is such a minor voice in the Rivendell council that it doesn't jar me to see his name again, but Legolas I think will have to be altered somehow. I rather suspect the prof. would not have let that stand.
Voronwe posted :
The problem, though, is that if Tolkien had ever finished
the later Tuor he would almost certainly have taken the
mechanical dragons out.
Lindil : agreed

Voronwe posted : In fact, he'd probably have
written the Fall of Gondolin again from scratch without
even referring to the lost tale.
lindil : you may be right but I imagine such things as the duel w/ Ecthelion and the fall of Glorfindel would have been largely similar.And perhaps much of the battle.
Voronwe posted :
... But I suppose we have to work with what we have. And
what we've got is the 'later Tuor' from UT, the brief
account in the Quenta (the basis for the 77 chapter) and
the Fall of Gondolin itself, the first Lost Tale Tolkien ever

L: yep
Voronwe posted : If we're going to use the Later Tuor at all, we'll have a
significant style change when it ends whatever we
choose to put after it, without resorting to creative
writing. I think we have three options if we want to use
only existing texts - either a very short account similar to
the one given in 77, or the 'later Tuor' with the modified
FoG taking up where it leaves off, or else the 'later Tuor'
followed by a rather disappointingly brief account of the
city's fall.

I think it would be interesting to at least attempt to
revise the Fall of Gondolin text to bring it into line with
Tolkien's later ideas. I'm not even sure if it's possible, but
someone should perhaps give it a shot.

Lindil : that's what Aiwendil, myself and whomever else wishes to join on will try and do.

Tar Elenion posted:

Only two Balrogs are slain
in the later accounts of the fall of Gondolin, Ecthelion
slays Gothmog and Glorfindel slays an unnamed Balrog.
Possibly replace the multitude of Balrogs with the 'Boldog'
type spirits from Morgoth's Ring.
lindil: Do we know for sure wether Boldog was a type/title or a proper name?

A major problem is the mention of Legolas, since we are
elsewhere told Elves do not reuse names. He actually
could be the Legolas of The Lord of the Rings. Not that I
believe it. Galdor can be the Galdor of the Havens in The
Lord of the Rings with no problems.
Writing of Glorfindel he says 'the repetition of so
striking a name is possible though not credible' .

lindil: I would say the same is true for Legolas - it is a striking name and one , obviously w/ lots of associations, wheras Galdor is [to my mind] neither striking or seriously evocative.

A great start I will say we have identified the general points to be dealt w/ from the get go. I propose those who wish to- to post a few samples of how they would use the II material [ other than not changing it all] so we can debate the relative merits of each style, while waiting a bit to see if others want to join in.

btw, please feel free to noise this about to whomever you feel might be interested. Due to time constraints I do not get around to other boards as much as some of you may.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="" >Osanwe</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=>lindil</A> at: 6/8/01 7:25:48 pm
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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