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Old 03-23-2014, 02:54 PM   #196
Morthoron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."-UT

You will find that Tolkien wrote a lot about details some might consider insignificant.
This is not specific to the Half-elven, and could include any number of Numenoreans related, however indirectly, to Elros (as it was to heirs of Dol-Amroth). You made this statement:

Quote:
For instance the Half-elven do not grow beards until very, very late in life like elves.
Where is that statement? It is not in the quote you provided, therefore, you made it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
I know the links to the historical Kings being able to heal, but this goes back to the Kings being put their by God.

However, in LOTR the healing that Aragorn does is a mixture of science, hypnotism and 'magic'. Aragorn as a Child of Luthien certainly possessed 'magic' as did the other descendants of Elros.

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.
-Letter 155

There you have it above. 'Magic' was not something that Men could posses.

Aragorn's 'healing'might be regarded as 'magical', or at least ablend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science;while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.
-Letter 155

So we can see 'magic' was involved (along with other things) in Aragorn's healing and this comes from his divine heritage.
Meh, I'll give you that one. Good research. However, Tolkien equivocates and uses such words as "might" be regarded as magical, and "in theory" reported by unscientific hobbits. Tolkien is equally ambiguous regarding "magical" properties supposedly unattainable in Men. For instance, he also states the Mouth of Sauron learned "great sorcery" under the tutelage of Sauron. There is no equivocation from Tolkien that he was unable to perform the Dark Arts; in fact, to say MoS learned "great sorcery" clearly shows he wasn't playing at parlor tricks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Yes there are. Have you not looked at the dates, that Earendil, Elwing etc conceive and have children? Now compare that with the elves, who usually only reached maturity at 50. All
Even you use the word "usually". There are only generalizations that cannot be applied across the board, particularly in times of terrific war and strife when customs bend to reality. Earendil and Elwing lived in a time of great upheaval, and they were both 29 when Elros and Elrond were born -- I don't see that as being an immature age, do you? And the Elvish mother Idril didn't bicker about customs, did she? Besides, mortals can and have given it a go regarding childbirth as soon as puberty hits at 11 or 12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Not true, because IF the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas is true then there child would be Half-elven and never given a choice. There is no record of Dior having a choice, but he was the first of the Peredhil.
Not true? Ummm...sorry, we must be reading a different book. Elros' descendants were not Half-elven, and neither were Aragorn's. The direct line of Earendil and Elwing were given the choice (Given that Luthien made a choice of mortality, it seems likely that Dior might also have that gift, but he died young), and once a choice was made, like in Arwen's case, the offspring are no longer Half-elven, but mortal and unable to make a choice. Obviously, the offspring of Imrazor and Mithrellas were mortal without benefit of the Half-elven choice, just as Elros offspring were mortal and not "Half-elven". Again, the term is titular to the line of Earendil until a choice of mortality is made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Again they Half-Elven are not choosing what race they are, because they remain Half-Elven. Nothing changed in Elrond and Elros after they made their choices. Their bodies and abilities remained the same.
Did they remain the same? I would suggest they did not remain the same, or at least Elros didn't. Elros could no longer produce Half-elven children, while Elrond could. Obviously, Eru the Galactic Geneticist fiddled with their chromosomes. Earendil and Elwing chose to be Elves, per Tolkien, just as Elrond did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Half-elf is not just a family term, but a description of what he is. Elrond is never referred to as an Elf Lord and either are his sons, but instead they are compared to Elf Lords. Elrond is even left as an Elf-Friend in the Hobbit.
Is Elrond immortal (having lived over 6500 years)? Check. Does he possess an Elven Ring? Check. Is he the master over all the Elves (including Glorfindel) at Rivendell? Check. Can he command the waters at the Ford of Bruinen? Check. Does he leave for the Undying Lands at the end of the story? Check. Is he, per Tolkien, parted from his daughter Arwen, who chose to be mortal, until the end of time? Check.

If it quacks like a duck, it is not a semantic piece of wood. And please don't refer to The Hobbit for canonical references.
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Last edited by Morthoron; 03-23-2014 at 06:04 PM.
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