View Single Post
Old 04-08-2019, 02:30 PM   #52
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,555
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
CE-EX-35.5: Agreed.

CE-EX-37: I can see your point, but I think removal is a radical cure, where slight modification should be sufficient. A gate unprotected by defenders is worthless and a gate closed all the time during a siege would not allow for many battles before it (in that case the battle would be ‘at the gate’ not before it). Consider for example the Gate of Angband: It was some times shut to keep out intruders like Fingolfin (twice), during the great Battles it was allway opened to let out Morgorth Armies, and in that way Gwindor could even enter during his rush. So for me the many battles before the gates of Utumno are part of the Valar dealing with Melkor’s might dispersed into his servance piecemeal. And their position before the gates show rather that during that time Melkor still had control over the gates and he still could send out his forces. In such a situation forcing the gate open by a horn blow of Oromë would be useless, because either the gate was already open and the defenders coming out, or the Valar did know well that they couldn’t get in as long as the defenders were active. Only after the Valar had fought down the defence in this series of battles they got control area directlybefore the gate and could try overcoming that ‘mechanical barrier’. And we see that even that first attempt of the Valar to enter Utumno was not fully succesfull, since Melkor had kept until that last and desperate moment the Balrogs as his most powerfull force.
But again I can see that he editing does not take enough count of this interpretation of the events. My suggestion is find below.

CE-EX-39: Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Now we come to what I’m sure will prove one of the real sticking points.
True!
It is clear that MT VI can be considered altogether or in parts under principle 2b. I as well agree that the style is in parts awakward for our propose, and that this is underlined by the way in which I mixed the sources (the nice think about a group work is, that there is alway a corrective).
I agree to your analyses of the essential features of MT VI and on the fact that point 1. to 4. are less critical then 5.. For me it is not clear why the pretended submission of Melkor should pose a bigger problem. Of course we will lose the fight of Melkor and Tulkas and the chaning with Angainor, but to build a narrative covering the storyl line of MT VI should be possible.
So here is my suggestion taking as well your earlier critisem into account: we should try to keep MT VI more together and use it as a kind of retrospective refelction probably before the council of the Valar that dealt with Melkor:
Quote:
§49 That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
{ 1099
§50 }It came to pass that at last CE-EX-37b <LT {There }in the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar {Ringil}[of Illuin] {they}[the Valar] came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade {Melko}[Mekor] come forth.
But though deep down within those halls {Melko}[Melkor] heard him and was in doubt, he would not come.> §50 {It}Thus it came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-EX-38 {a host of}<AAm, late scribbeld changes his> Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained <AAm, late scribbeld changes faithfull to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.>

CE-EX-38.1<LT But {though deep down within those halls Melko heard him and was in doubt, he}[u]Melkor[/b] would still not come, but sent {Langon his}a servant and said by him that "Behold, he was rejoiced and in wonder to see the {Gods}[Valar] before his gates. Now would he gladly welcome them, yet for the poverty of his abode not more than two of them could he fitly entertain; and he begged that neither Manwë nor Tulkas be of the two, for the one merited and the other demanded hospitality of great cost and richness. Should this not be to their mind then would he fain hearken to Manwe's herald and learn what it were the {Gods}[Valar] so greatly desired that they must leave their soft couches and indolence of Valinor for the bleak places where {Melko}[Melkor] laboured humbly and did his toilsome work."
Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear from {Melko}[Melkor]'s words that he was awake and wary in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the {Gods}[Valar] he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how these twain may come upon him CE-EX-38.2{ unawares} and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways." To this Manwe assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwe sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4<LT Then the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and now they follow Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. Then said Manwë: "Behold, we have come and salute you here in your own halls; come now and be in Valinor." But Melko might not thus easily forgo his sport. "Nay first," said he, "wilt thou come Manwe and kneel before me, and after you all the Valar; but last shall come Tulkas and kiss my foot, for I have in mind something for which I owe Poldorea no great love." Now he purposed to spurn Tulkas in the mouth in payment of that buffet long ago. Thus> CE-EX-38.6 <MT; VI Manwë at last {faces}faced Melkor again, as he {has}had not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he {has}had now less personal force than Manwë, and {can}could no longer daunt him with his gaze.> CE-EX-38.7 <MT; VI Possibly (and he {thinks}thought it possible) he could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces {reassemble}reassembled.> CE-EX-38.8 <MT; VI He {feigns}feigned remorse and repentance. He actually {kneels}kneeled before Manwë and {surrenders}surrendered.>
CE-EX-38.9<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.>
CE-EX-38.91<LQ Nonetheless the CE-SL-17{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor{ at Utumno} had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour. CE-EX-44b <LT Now Tulkas and Ulmo {break}brook the gates of {Utumna}[Utumno] and {pile}piled hills of stone upon them. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when {Melko}[Melkor] was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of {Melko}[Melkor] find their end.
After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to {Valmar}[Valimar] by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> CE-EX-44.5 <MT; VI Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[Footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).>
CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is }a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small{, lying bound} and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him {speaketh}spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violenceCE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} Thereat arose {Palúrien}[Kementári] in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but {Melko}[Melkor] CE-SL-14{writhed}[simmered] in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15{unchained Melko and }fought {him}Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.>CE-EX-39c <MT; VI
The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of {his}Melkor’s sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming ' CE-EX-40{the Morgoth, }a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), {+}and his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the CE-EX-41{Morgoth}[tyrant]' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power level with the Valar. The Valar {find}found that they {can}could deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they {come}came at last to Utumno itself and {find}found that {'the Morgoth'}[Melkor] {has}had no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. CE-EX-42{Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.
Either }Manwë {must tell him so or}had told Melkor and he {must }himself suddenly {realize (or both) }had realized that this {has}had happened: he {is}was 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, {has}had become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (/as it /possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he {cannot}could not bring himself to do it.[Footnote to the text: One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', CE-EX-43b{Orcs, Balrogs, etc. }power of recuperation and multiplication{. So}, so that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power {has}had gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.] {As with all other characters there must be}/There was/ a trembling moment when {it is}/he was/ in the balance: he nearly {repents}repented - and {does}did not, and {becomes}became much wickeder, and more foolish.
CE-EX-43.2{Possibly (and he thinks it possible) he could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces reassemble. }So - as soon as he {has}had mentally rejected repentance - he {(just like Sauron afterwards on this model) makes}made a mockery of selfabasement and repentance. From {which}this actually he {gets}got a kind of perverted pleasure as in desecrating something holy – {[}for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.{]} He {feigns remorse and}feigned repentance CE-EX-43.4{. He actually kneels before Manwë and surrenders} - in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he {fears}feared would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he {has}had the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he {offers}offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he {has}had done. It {is}was this offer which {seduces}seduced or {deludes}deluded Manwë{ -}/./ Manwë {must be shown to have}/had/ his own inherent fault (though not sin)[Footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]: he {has}had become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the {status quo}[present state]' - to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he {grants}had granted Melkor's prayer.
CE-EX-43.5{Melkor is taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[Footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who follows bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).
}But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).
Then {he begins}Melkor began to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion{ - but}/. But/ he {is}was now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory{. He cannot}/, he could not do this/. Therefore he {swallows}swallowed the bitter pill (but it greatly {increases}increased his hate, and he ever {afterward}afterwards accused Manwë of being faithless).> CE-EX-47{and}And he was {bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and} led captive CE-SL-16b{; and the world had peace for a great age. Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
§22 But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor bound hand and foot and blindfold, and he was cast} into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for {seven [>}three{]} ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon CE-SL-18{.}<moved from above ; and the world had peace for a great age.>
§23 Then again the {Gods}[Valar] were gathered in council ...
Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote