[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

First of all, I should say that I half suspect that I'm working from an old copy of the text, as it seems to have a lot of errors in it. If I am, that should become clear from what follows.

I did find all quotations you made exactly in the same way in my most recent document, so I think you are working from the right text. If with errors you are speaking of typos it could be that some of them were corrected either silently by myself or by Meadhros in post #49 in the Thread: * * Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.5 -- >end [the remaining sections] * *. Anyway looking into the privat forum, I did't find a text of this chapter posted by me. It is given section wise by Meadhros, but in an rather outdated version. And we have Antoine's allerts of texts and there later removal. I will post a actual version, once we are finished with our discussion here.

By the way: In the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text' some of your points are already mentioned by Tar-Elenion, Maedhros, yourself, Aiwendil and me. I think that your text must be one provide by me, because of the {ages}[centuries] issue. So I have to say, it might be that I missed some points of that hidden discussion in the private forum while prepaering the text. I will go through them now and see what is not yet corrected.

FG-C-22 The Horns of Ulmo:
In your version as in my one the poem stands as it was left behind after the discussion stoped. But it seems I (or Antione, if he made the final text) didn't take it out as was the last result of the discussion.
Anyhow I have a fiant rememberens of farther discussions on the poem, but I can't find them. In addition it seems to me that all three of us would have liked to include the poem. We just couldn't find a solution for the neccessary switch from present in Nan-Thathren to the past at Neverast. Probably we should try again.

FG-HY-02.1: Agreed.

Fg-B-04: The reason I remember for this change was that 'slaughter Rog had done amid the Balrogs' suggeste heavily that Rog and his men killed Balrogs. But techincaly your point is right and I am willing to leave that change out.

{ages}[centuries]: This is my change, not discussed but given in the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text'. Yes we are probably correcting an internal error of the LT-text here. And since it is a charachter speaking not the external author we might let this stand as it is. Even so the reverenc to 'children of the Noldor' is now a bit misleading since Rog must mean the Elves of the second tribe captured before the fall of Utumno, which are technical speaking are no Noldor.

FG-C-24: I asked the same question with out any answer, but didn't put it right in the text as it seems. I correct it now.

FG-T-23: Agreed

FG-T-24: You are storming open doors! I was never confinced that the counsel of Ulmo was changed. I prupose we take up some parts of the Q30 passage and hold more of the LT version as well:

FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Morgoth] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Morgoth]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of {Melko}[Morgoth], and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Morgoth], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea. But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01 <GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>.
Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin. FG-TG-01.5 <Sil77
But in the warning of Ulmo Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood.

>Of all Tuor's deeds among ...

FG-D-02: Agreed.

FG-B-01: Agreed.

FG-D-04, FG-D-29: The first was a change that I proposed. Both were for the sake of clearity. I repeat two of my comments from the 'Mechanical Monsters Thread':

But may be we must prepare the read for the task we impose on him (to interpret the dragon types while reading). In the creation scene there is no mention of the later "name" "dragons of fire", with which they were mostly addressed in the text, but that could be easily amended:

The very faint distinguish between type 3 [streams of fire] and type 4 [animal dragons] that I could find was that I interpreted any "fire dragon", "fire-dragon", "fire drake" and "fire-drake" as type 4. and any serpents/dragon/stream or what ever of fire/flame as type 3.

FG-D-04 you did not gainsay back then when we discussed the matter and FG-D-29 did even find your hestatingly given support.

Fire drakes are drakes of fire.

That is not true, if you look back at the discussion. At least FG-D-29 is needed, in my oppinion.

'{Legolas}[Laegols] Greenleaf' is okay for me.

FG-C-03: I couldn't find any discussion of this save the posting #1 of Lindil in the thread '* * Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.5 -- >end [the remaining sections] * *'. In this he gives to options. But none of them are very convincing for me. The text as it stand is his option 1. But it is based on his fan-fiction. Option 2 would read:

Then said the king: FG-C-03 KO 'Great is the fall of Gondolin'{, and men shuddered, for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...

I would amend this to:

Then said the king: FG-C-03 KO 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', and men shuddered, for such were the words of {Annon the prophet of old}<Sil77 the Prophecy of the North>; but Tuor speaking wildly ...

FG-C-26, last sentence: Yes, 'Isle of Sirion' does suggest Tol Sirion in the groge of Sirion far to the north. But 'mouth of Sirion' does not transport the full meaning. What about: 'Ilse <editorial addition in the delta of> Sirion' or we could use 'grows at the delta of Sirion' it would tarnsport the clear meaning of 'Ilse' in TE.

Respectfully
Findegil