[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

I certainly sympathize with that frustration. But really there are many, many things we could add but probably shouldn't. My understanding has been that the goal of this project is not to provide as long or as detailed a narrative as possible, but rather to provide a full narrative of everything that can be considered canonical (in the sense of "true within Middle-earth"). Roughly speaking, there are three categories into which ideas can be placed: clearly valid, clearly invalid, and dubious. In a different Revised Silmarillion - one with different fundamental goals, like the fan-fictionalized Silmarillion that jallanite once talked about - the "dubious" ideas could be used. These are things that might be true and even that seem likely to be true. But I think that for this project only the "clearly valid" ideas ought to be accepted.

I can only say that I think this is clear put and that I accept it whole heartedly. But to find the boundarys between the categories you put forward is the problem here, saddly as it is the world is not black, grey and white but constant shift from a slightly shadowed white to very dark anthrazit. (To tell you the thruth, the world would be very boring ift were not so. And I like the discussions about the boundary we do here very much.)

Posted by Aiwendil:

In retaining it [the Battle of the Pools] we would be completely altering its circumstances.

I do not agree with that, but the Battle of the Pools is in fact were I felt my additions were on very edge of bearability for being to risky. Thus I can accept the Battle at the Pools to be droped. At least it is hinted at by the bitter fights for the passage of Sirion.

That you accepted the liberation of Hithlum is a reliefe and also a little surprise to me. I would have thought it stired more discussion.

Posted by Aiwendil:

This makes a lot of sense, but again it seems to me to be the kind of speculation that's out of place in our version, either overtly stated or used as an implicit justification for part of the text. I'm still very doubtful about specifying the Noldor.

Does that mean you would accept the defeat at Nan-Tathren, but would not name the Noldor as the source of the Army defeated? That seems to me a workable plot. It will make my assumptions more implicit than explicit, when we accept the Battle of Eglarest as valid.

I found that I had made a mistack in my last editing, since I wanted to take Aiwendils advise to restore the naming of the War for the complte fight and not only for the Battle in the North, but I failed to do so. I will amend that in the text given below:
Forum formatted:

Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.>{Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.} But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great<AB2{ Great} war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field{.}>, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East{;}<AB2{ He summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard}, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.> {and}But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of {his}Eönwës arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.{
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords;<QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
<Sil77 The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. ><AB2 The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. ><FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor Noldorin and his Eldar come there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it?}[One of the hosts of the Elves camped long in Nan-Tathren.] Indeed sleeping {and dancing here}there{, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects}, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and {Noldorin}[only a few of the Elves] made bare escape thence.> But at last<AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].>
<BTOf the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.{...}
{The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. }There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …

Plain Text:

Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
The host of Eönwë was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of Eglarest, where Ingwion son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore. But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great war came now into Beleriand, and Eönwë drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons. But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of Eönwës arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by Eärendil son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. One of the hosts of the Elves camped long in Nan-Tathren. Indeed sleeping there, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by Morgoth from the Ironhills and only a few of the Elves made bare escape thence. But at last Eönwë crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth, and Morgoth‘s army fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of Eönwë.
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.
There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …

Respectfully
Findegil