The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”

jallanite · 06-26-2015, 06:58 PM

In the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring”, I posted in part in response to a remark by Mithadan on errors in The Lord of the Rings. See the pertinent part of my post here:

The 50th anniversary edition of The Lord of the Rings, also published in paperback, contains on pages xvi to xvii a “Note on the 50ᵗʰ Anniversary Edition” by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull on their fixing of various errors in the text. Most of the changes are minor typographical corrections(?). They have been very conservative in their editing and every change has been approved by Christopher Tolkien. They note on page xvii:

Most of the demonstrable errors noted by Christopher Tolkien in The History of Middle-earth also have been corrected, such as the distance from the Brandywine Bridge to the Ferry (ten miles rather than twenty) and the number of Merry’s ponies (five rather than six). But those inconsistencies of content, such as Gimli’s famous (and erroneous) statement in Book III, Chapter 7, ‘Till now I have hewn naught but wood since I have left Moria’, which would require rewriting to emend rather than simple correction, remain unchanged.

All the emendations are listed with short explanations in “Changes to the Editions of 2004–5” published on pages 783–912 of Hammond and Scull’s The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion.

There are other contradictions not fixed as requiring too much rewriting.

For example, in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past” Tolkien has Gandalf explain:

A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too.

Yet we later learn that at that time Gandalf has been secretly bearing a Ring of Power for close to two thousand years, a Ring given him freely by Círdan its keeper. Either Tolkien intends Gandalf to be uniquely lying, has accidentally typed “A Ring of Power” instead of something like “One of Sauron’s Rings”, intends the reader to understand that Gandalf has made a slip of the tongue, or perhaps had not yet invented the idea that Gandalf was secretly bearing an Elvish Ring of Power freely given to him by Círdan its keeper.

I can bring up other contradictions within The Lord of the Rings and still more in The Hobbit and between The Lord of the Rings and the published Silmarillion if you wish.

There was a large response to this post some positive and some negative. I was effectively accused of hijacking the thread, which was not my intent but was what mostly happened.

Since many Barrow-downers seemingly did and do wish to discuss this subject, it seemed to me the best thing was to open a separate thread on this subject, so that hopefully the original subject-matter of “The Effect of the Great Ring” may be continued without being affected by this sub-discussion.

Hammond and Scull’s original note appears on page 87 of the The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion:

55 (I:64). its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing and really done it. – This is true of the One Ring, but not of all Rings of Power, of which Gandalf seems to be speaking generally. Celebrimbor gave away the Three Rings. Círdan gave his Ring to Gandalf, Gil-galad (when dying) gave his to Elrond, and Thrór gave his Ring to Thráin.

To follow the arguments that arose from this, read most of #15 to #32 in the thread: “The Effect of the Great Ring”.

Note that my own opinions have somewhat changed over the course of this discussion but I still see this as a contradiction, along with Hammond and Scull, if the words which Tolkien gives to Gandalf are taken fully literally. If we assume that Frodo is not supposed have been able to recall in exact detail what Gandalf said, we might imagine Gandalf’s words as something like: “A Ring of Power held by a mortal looks after itself, Frodo” instead of “A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo.”

I wish I had thought earlier of the possibility of starting a new thread, Hopefully this will allow “The Effect of the Great Ring” to continue without discussing Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”.

06-26-2015, 06:58 PM	#1
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past” In the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring”, I posted in part in response to a remark by Mithadan on errors in The Lord of the Rings. See the pertinent part of my post here: The 50th anniversary edition of The Lord of the Rings, also published in paperback, contains on pages xvi to xvii a “Note on the 50ᵗʰ Anniversary Edition” by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull on their fixing of various errors in the text. Most of the changes are minor typographical corrections(?). They have been very conservative in their editing and every change has been approved by Christopher Tolkien. They note on page xvii: Most of the demonstrable errors noted by Christopher Tolkien in The History of Middle-earth also have been corrected, such as the distance from the Brandywine Bridge to the Ferry (ten miles rather than twenty) and the number of Merry’s ponies (five rather than six). But those inconsistencies of content, such as Gimli’s famous (and erroneous) statement in Book III, Chapter 7, ‘Till now I have hewn naught but wood since I have left Moria’, which would require rewriting to emend rather than simple correction, remain unchanged. All the emendations are listed with short explanations in “Changes to the Editions of 2004–5” published on pages 783–912 of Hammond and Scull’s The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion. There are other contradictions not fixed as requiring too much rewriting. For example, in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past” Tolkien has Gandalf explain: A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. Yet we later learn that at that time Gandalf has been secretly bearing a Ring of Power for close to two thousand years, a Ring given him freely by Círdan its keeper. Either Tolkien intends Gandalf to be uniquely lying, has accidentally typed “A Ring of Power” instead of something like “One of Sauron’s Rings”, intends the reader to understand that Gandalf has made a slip of the tongue, or perhaps had not yet invented the idea that Gandalf was secretly bearing an Elvish Ring of Power freely given to him by Círdan its keeper. I can bring up other contradictions within The Lord of the Rings and still more in The Hobbit and between The Lord of the Rings and the published Silmarillion if you wish. There was a large response to this post some positive and some negative. I was effectively accused of hijacking the thread, which was not my intent but was what mostly happened. Since many Barrow-downers seemingly did and do wish to discuss this subject, it seemed to me the best thing was to open a separate thread on this subject, so that hopefully the original subject-matter of “The Effect of the Great Ring” may be continued without being affected by this sub-discussion. Hammond and Scull’s original note appears on page 87 of the The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion: 55 (I:64). its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing and really done it. – This is true of the One Ring, but not of all Rings of Power, of which Gandalf seems to be speaking generally. Celebrimbor gave away the Three Rings. Círdan gave his Ring to Gandalf, Gil-galad (when dying) gave his to Elrond, and Thrór gave his Ring to Thráin. To follow the arguments that arose from this, read most of #15 to #32 in the thread: “The Effect of the Great Ring”. Note that my own opinions have somewhat changed over the course of this discussion but I still see this as a contradiction, along with Hammond and Scull, if the words which Tolkien gives to Gandalf are taken fully literally. If we assume that Frodo is not supposed have been able to recall in exact detail what Gandalf said, we might imagine Gandalf’s words as something like: “A Ring of Power held by a mortal looks after itself, Frodo” instead of “A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo.” I wish I had thought earlier of the possibility of starting a new thread, Hopefully this will allow “The Effect of the Great Ring” to continue without discussing Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”. Last edited by jallanite; 06-26-2015 at 07:14 PM.