The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - ** Fall of Gondolin Section 3 Structure**

Aiwendil · 11-11-2003, 03:17 PM

I must apologize, for I've just noticed that in my previous argument on this matter, I was making a rather foolish mistake.

I see now that the problem is with the fact that Q30's "revealing unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin and the ways whereby it might be found and assailed" is made the second reply and the first is merely its location. This appears to contradict the story that Maeglin had already told the Orcs more than just its location. (I had thought the alleged problem was between the LT and Q30 versions, but in fact it's between LT and "Wanderings").

Sorry for my obtuseness on this matter. I see the problem in full (I hope I do, at any rate). I see the following possible solutions:

1. Leave the text as it is. The rationale here would be that Maeglin is simply being irrational. I don't think this is too hard to believe - when brought into the presence of Morgoth, the magnitude of his treachery might strike him with greater force, and he might also hold back in fear.

2. Alter the encounter with the Orcs so that Maeglin tells them only the location of Gondolin, but the rest of the episode proceeds as in LT. This seems a very reasonable course, for it involves only a very minor alteration to the plot. However, the textual alterations needed might prove a bit heavier than we would like.

3. Remove the whole business of the Orcs threatening Maeglin; as soon as they capture him, they bring him to Angband. This has the disadvantage that we lose a bit of detail and also that we are making a more significant alteration to the text. Whether the textual edit here is more or less contrived than that in 2 I'm not sure.

4. Remove the whole passage with the Orcs, replacing it with a sentence of summary from ToY or some other source. This has the virtue of avoiding the problem altogether. It also has the virtue that it does not involve a potential contradiction with ToY (with "spies" or with "Sauron"). It has the disadvantage that it involves the removal of a lot of text.

Those are the possibilities I see. I am not at all sure myself which I favor. I suppose I lean toward 2.

But I think it would be best to carry this discussion out as far as it will go in the hope of reaching some kind of agreement rather than reducing it to a mere vote.

11-11-2003, 03:17 PM	#34
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I must apologize, for I've just noticed that in my previous argument on this matter, I was making a rather foolish mistake. I see now that the problem is with the fact that Q30's "revealing unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin and the ways whereby it might be found and assailed" is made the second reply and the first is merely its location. This appears to contradict the story that Maeglin had already told the Orcs more than just its location. (I had thought the alleged problem was between the LT and Q30 versions, but in fact it's between LT and "Wanderings"). Sorry for my obtuseness on this matter. I see the problem in full (I hope I do, at any rate). I see the following possible solutions: 1. Leave the text as it is. The rationale here would be that Maeglin is simply being irrational. I don't think this is too hard to believe - when brought into the presence of Morgoth, the magnitude of his treachery might strike him with greater force, and he might also hold back in fear. 2. Alter the encounter with the Orcs so that Maeglin tells them only the location of Gondolin, but the rest of the episode proceeds as in LT. This seems a very reasonable course, for it involves only a very minor alteration to the plot. However, the textual alterations needed might prove a bit heavier than we would like. 3. Remove the whole business of the Orcs threatening Maeglin; as soon as they capture him, they bring him to Angband. This has the disadvantage that we lose a bit of detail and also that we are making a more significant alteration to the text. Whether the textual edit here is more or less contrived than that in 2 I'm not sure. 4. Remove the whole passage with the Orcs, replacing it with a sentence of summary from ToY or some other source. This has the virtue of avoiding the problem altogether. It also has the virtue that it does not involve a potential contradiction with ToY (with "spies" or with "Sauron"). It has the disadvantage that it involves the removal of a lot of text. Those are the possibilities I see. I am not at all sure myself which I favor. I suppose I lean toward 2. But I think it would be best to carry this discussion out as far as it will go in the hope of reaching some kind of agreement rather than reducing it to a mere vote.