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Old 05-31-2017, 03:51 AM   #10
skip spence
shadow of a doubt
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skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
So, this is a subject which really intrigues me. Tolkien, in no small part thanks to his sincere Christian convictions, did not seem to cast the Orcs as being wholly evil and capable of good - though this was obviously difficult thanks to Sauron's malignant influence over them.

But, after the War of the Ring, do you think any Orcs could have become integrated into societies such as Gondor or Rohan? Would the people there have accepted this? As King, would Aragon have allowed it? Certainly, from what we see of their speech patterns and character, they seem to have far more in common with men in Tolkien's world than the more aloof and scholarly Elves.

Judging from what we saw of The New Shadow, it seems clear that in Gondorian society, Orcs were not present, and took on the role of a boogeyman. Allowing naughty children to "play Orc" and act like delinquents.

But do you believe it was ever possible for them to join human societies once Sauron was defeated?
I'd say that Orcs would have been somewhat integrated into human societies already by the Third Age and earlier. After all, some of the Southerners in Bree were described as half-Orcs I recall, so the idea of Orcs and Men coexisting and even interbreeding didn't seem far fetched to the Bree-landers (though how informed are they?). In some of the Eastern societies under Sauron one can presume that Orcs and Men coexisted in relative peace and commerce (Orcs valued money: who would they trade with?). And isn't there a throw-away line in The Hobbit that says that there are still Orcs a plenty in modern times? That they are ingenious and prolific inventors of weapons among other nasty habits?

I think what separates Orcs from Men is to be found inside much more than in physical appearance. Clearly there are distinguishing physical traits as well, but I don't think they go that much further than the different appearances of the Human races, something that the Half-Orcs in Bree seems to confirm. Also, when the Eldar first espied Orcs in Beleriand they took them for Avari gone wild.

No, I'd say that Orcs are Children of Illuvator, i.e. Men, though deep under the Shadow. An Orcs is one who does Orc work and if an Orc is redeemed it is no longer an Orc. Clearly many Men are no better than Orcs too.

Hard to see Orcs integrated into Gondon or Rohan early in the 4th Age though. Aragorn would probably accept an earnest request by Orcs to stay inīpeace somewhere within the borders but I can't see how any band of Orcs would make that request. They would've been far too deep into fear and hatred to ever consider that.
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