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Old 02-08-2003, 09:39 AM   #21
Aiwendil
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Sting

I am copying the parts of the Ainulindale discussion from the private forum that do not relate specifically to the text posted there. That discussion should really take place here.

Maedhros:
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I think that this have been discussed earlier, but all of the references of Ælfwine, Eriol had been discarded. So this must means that Rúmil must go too. If you are a lover of Book of Lost Tales, it's a shame, but I think that it's necessary.

§10, it says that:


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Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them;
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How could the Ainur be afraid, when later in the Quenta Silmarillion, it states that Melkor was the only Vala that knew fear.
§8, it says:


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In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved
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Does this means that the Ainur had some place to dwell then. Certainly Halls of Ilúvatar is not the same as the Void, or is it?
From this note it seems that they are a different thing:

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But it is perfectly explicit that the Ainur, created by Iluvatar (§1), dwelt in 'fair regions' that Ilúvatar had made for them (§10); some of them remained 'beyond the confines of the World' (§21)
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§4 it says:


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Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days.
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You have heard this complaint of mine before, but I still think that Children of Ilúvatar means only Men and not Elves and Men.
Eru:
Quote:
I think that this have been discussed earlier, but all of the references of Ælfwine, Eriol had been discarded. So this must means that Rúmil must go too. If you are a lover of Book of Lost Tales, it's a shame, but I think that it's necessary.

§10, it says that:


quote:
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Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How could the Ainur be afraid, when later in the Quenta Silmarillion, it states that Melkor was the only Vala that knew fear.
§8, it says:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Does this means that the Ainur had some place to dwell then. Certainly Halls of Ilúvatar is not the same as the Void, or is it?
From this note it seems that they are a different thing:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But it is perfectly explicit that the Ainur, created by Iluvatar (§1), dwelt in 'fair regions' that Ilúvatar had made for them (§10); some of them remained 'beyond the confines of the World' (§21)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

§4 it says:


quote:
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Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You have heard this complaint of mine before, but I still think that Children of Ilúvatar means only Men and not Elves and Men.
Maedhros:
Quote:
Eru, I'm a little confused about your statement concerning the fear of the Ainur. Are you saying that we should changed the word afraid to something else?
Also, if there are no objections, I will use another color (yellos) to differentiate the parts concerning Ælfwine and Rúmil, as per acordance that they are no longer part of the Ainulindalë.
P.S. It's been very quiet this discussion.
Eru:
Quote:
Eru, I'm a little confused about your statement concerning the fear of the Ainur. Are you saying that we should changed the word afraid to something else?
Also, if there are no objections, I will use another color (yellos) to differentiate the parts concerning Ælfwine and Rúmil, as per acordance that they are no longer part of the Ainulindalë.
P.S. It's been very quiet this discussion.
Aiwendil:
Quote:
Maedhros: I wonder if this discussion should perhaps take place in the public forum? That would certainly maximize input.

quote:
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I think that this have been discussed earlier, but all of the references of Ælfwine, Eriol had been discarded. So this must means that Rúmil must go too. If you are a lover of Book of Lost Tales, it's a shame, but I think that it's necessary.
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I am just the slightest bit hesitant about this, since Aelfwine did indeed appear in a number of late writings. But certainly there is a preponderance of evidence showing that he must go. So I agree with this deletion.


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How could the Ainur be afraid, when later in the Quenta Silmarillion, it states that Melkor was the only Vala that knew fear.
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This is a very good question, but not, I think, one that need concern us overmuch. There are a few possible solutions, though each, I think, is a bit of a stretch. First of all, it's possible that "the Ainur" refers not to all the Ainur, but to the majority of them. In this case, it might not include those that later became the Valar. Second, it's possible that the statement that Melkor was the only Vala who knew fear describes the state of affairs in Arda, and does not proclude the Valar being afraid before the creation of Arda (i.e., before they were "Valar"). Third, it's possible, as Eru pointed out, that "fear" means something subtly different in the two instances. It's even conceivable that the hypothetical Quenya original used two different words, but the translator (Aelfwine, or Bilbo, or whoever) failed to retain the distinction.

Of course, all of these are rather artificial answers, and none can be taken as "true" with anything like validity. The fact of the matter is that we have an apparent contradiction within the text.

But, again, I don't think that this should concern us. We ought, I think, merely to let it stand. Our task is not to edit, revise, or correct JRRT's extant texts. We may - indeed we must - reconcile contradictions that occur between different texts. But in this case, the contradiction is entirely self-contained and has no bearing on any other textual decisions. On top of that, we simply have no good way of resolving the contradiction. Eru suggests replacing "fear" in the first instance with "bewildered" or something similar. But in this case, we are deciding in favor of the "subtle distinction" rationalization, and we might as well just leave "fear" and rationalize it the same way.


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Does this means that the Ainur had some place to dwell then. Certainly Halls of Ilúvatar is not the same as the Void, or is it?

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As above, I think that this is a good question but one that we need not be concerned with. I always imagined, though, that the halls of Iluvatar were indeed a physical place distinct from the void that surrounded them. Both void and halls were "beyond the confines of the world"; i.e., beyond the confines of Arda.

A more difficult puzzle is the relation between Arda, Ea, and the Void, particularly the reference to Arda being placed "amidst the innumberable stars". There is, as I believe Christopher points out, no good way to reconcile this with the view that the stars are drops of light in some kind of celestial dome. But that's simply the way the Ainulindale is, and I think that again we should follow Christopher's precedent and not adjust the text.


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You have heard this complaint of mine before, but I still think that Children of Ilúvatar means only Men and not Elves and Men.
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Correct me if I'm wrong (I unfortunately don't have the books with me at the moment), but my understanding of the concern here is that "Children of Iluvatar" may have been a transcription error in D for "Children of Men" in C. This is, in my opinion, the only valid justification for making an alteration. If Tolkien intended "Children of Iluvatar", then we have no right to change it. The only question, then, is whether it was an error. I am of the opinon that it most likely was not - he tended to be very attentive to such details as this, and usually any such change was rather premeditated.

Concerning this, Eru quoted the Second Prophecy of Mandos and said:


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if this version is to be beilived, then the Elves will dwell forever on 'Arda Unmarred'. (my name for it, since Arda Marred will be destroyed and then remade, and with Melkor/Morgoth dead, then it will no longer be marred...). anyways, i hope that makes a certain amount of since.

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I must point out that this passage is of dubious validity at best. The fullest (and I think latest) treatment of the fate of Elves occurs in the Athrabeth, where it is made clear that the Elves have no knowledge of what will happen to them beyond the End.
Maedhros:
Quote:
I have highlited the parts that deal with either Ælfwine and Rúmil in yellow and also parts such as Palúrien which I believe was changed to Keméntari.
If there are other changes, please feel free to mentioned them.
Eru:
Quote:
some of the information in the passages with Rumil and Aelfwine are valuble. are they absolutely nessecessary to take out? couldn't they be said in a slightly different way. if not, then i will agree with Maedrhos.
Maedhros:
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What I meant was for the references of Ælfwine and Rúmil to be taken of the text.
Eru:
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ah, i get it. so basically, making th info. the same, without reference to those two.
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