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Old 02-11-2003, 06:13 PM   #24
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
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Sting

Quote:
I would change the was to is: but the delight and pride of Aulë is in the deed of making.
Hmm. In the preceding sentences, though, the past tense is used. My inclination would be that if we are going to change anything, we should change the present to past.

Quote:
I would leave it out.
Agreed. Though it's a nice bit of description, we unfortunately have no way of knowing whether Tolkien excluded it inadvertantly or intentionally.

Quote:
I think that a vote is in order then, but I think there is a thread about Ælfwine in this section of the forum. I think that his reference should be taken out of the project.
I don't think there's any doubt about this. I merely meant that we must decide how to deal with each particular instance. I suppose I'll take a stab at that. If anyone else wants to try any alternatives, though, go ahead.

Here are my recommendations:

{ } Material to be deleted.
Italics Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

Authorial Credit:
Quote:
This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage.} To it are added the further words that Pengoloð {spoke} wrote {at that time} concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter
If we decide to exclude the matter that follows section 28, we should also omit the reference to Pengolodh here:

Quote:
This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage. To it are added the further words that Pengoloð spoke at that time concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter}
I assume that the removal of Aelfwine does not imply a change in the authorship of the Ainulindale - there is no reason why it cannot still have been written by Rumil, and the last few sections added by Pengolodh.

Section 0 (for lack of a better term):

Quote:
{First he recited to him the Ainulindalë as Rúmil made it.}
I think this should simply be deleted. I see no way of revising it, nor a need to.

Section 14
Quote:
But {thou must understand, Ælfwine, that} when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty of the Holy Ones bent all their thought and their desire towards that place.
Simple deletion of reference to Aelfwine.

Section 21
Quote:
And therefore{, Ælfwine, we name them} they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
This is what Christopher does, and I am inclined to agree with him. The other option is:

Quote:
And therefore{, Ælfwine,} we name them they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
But I think that "we" is out of place when this is no longer the spoken words of Pengolodh (which may paraphrase Rumil), but the written words of Rumil.

Section 25
Quote:
But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. {And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.}
I regret losing the bit about Yavanna taking the form of a tree, but I can see no way to retain it that would not sound awkward.

Section 27
Quote:
and of those tumults {we} the elves know but little; for {know thou, Ælfwine,} what {I have} has been declared {unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom {we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were} by whom they were instructed {by them}; but little would they ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee} is told among the Eldar:
Here I mostly follow Christopher. Some of the changes might seem a little daring, but I think they are, at the worst, covered by the principle that allows us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien. If we end up removing the Pengolodh sections at the end, we may also want to remove this, as it is clear in Ainulindale D that these are the words of Pengolodh, not of Rumil. Or we might follow the '77, leaving this in, as emended, and assuming that these actually are Rumil's words.

Section 28
Quote:
{But of all such matters, Ælfwine, others shall tell thee, or thou shalt read in other lore; for it is not my part at this time to instruct thee in the history of the Earth.} And now behold! here is the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar established at the last in the deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars. And here are the Valar, the Powers of the World, contesting for the possession of the jewel of Ilúvatar{; and thus thy feet are on the beginning of the road.
Here are the words of Pengoloð to Ælfwine}
This eliminates only that which has no significance outside of the Pengolodh-Aelfwine framework. We might also go with Christopher Tolkien's emendation: "And thus was the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars."

Section 29
Quote:
{And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him: Little, you say, would the Valar tell to the Eldar of the days before their coming: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me more of the Valar as they were when first your kindred beheld and knew them?}
I can see no way to retain this.

Section 30
Quote:
{And Pengoloð answered: Much of what I know or have learned from the elders in lore, I have written; and what I have written thou shalt read, if thou wilt, when thou hast learned better the tongue of the Noldor and their scripts. For these matters are too great and manifold to be spoken or to be taught in speech within the brief patience and heedfulness of those of mortal race. But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.}
Again, I can think of no way (or reason) to retain this.

Section 31
Quote:
{This tale I have heard also among the lore masters in ages past. For they tell us that} [T]he war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth
If we decide to remove the Pengolodh material, this and the subsequent sections will be moved into "Of the Beginning of Days", as in the '77.

Section 36
Quote:
And the {children} servants of Manwë and Varda are {Fionwë Úrion their son} Eonwe{,} and Ilmarë {their daughter; and these were the eldest of the children of the Valar.} They dwelt with Manwë,
There is also the matter of tense here, which we may or may not want to address.

Section [34]
Quote:
{Now all is said to thee, Ælfwine, for this present, concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it. Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.}
This, I think, must be removed. By the way, is this section numbered out of order for some reason? Or is the section number a mistake?

Section 40b
Quote:
{End of the Ainulindalë spoken by Rúmil to Ælfwine}
No reason to keep this.

[ February 11, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]
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