[Gwaihir the Windlord]

She's the creator of those she cannot leave.

Varda didn't 'create' the Elves, she only loved them. As did all the Valar.

I cannot see your point, Finwe. Perhaps you could be more clear as to what issue exactly you are talking about? Varda's relationship with the Elves, particularly the Vanyar, existed because of her kinship with them; the Elves and the Valinorian Ainur, it is said, are in many ways similar beings. Either way, I cannot really say anything about this until I know what events your are referring to.

Noldorin-king, owing to the fact that you said it in a foreign language of some sort I did not understand that last part. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] However I will talk about the rest of it. To understand spousal relationships between the Valar you have to consider one or two things. Obviously, their marriages were pretty unreproductive biologically; but it is here that JRRT, I think, has something to say about the deeper meaning of love. (sounds terribly soppy when I say it like that, but it is interesting so we may as well talk about it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female (based upon the vision of the Children of Illuvatar); for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby...

Male and female, then, are the two alternate forms of being that are present in the very essence of even the Ainur. Therefore maleness and femaleness go beyond the biological side of things, and are inherent qualities (one or the other) in all beings.

'Love' as we know it probably has something to do with this. Male and female, it would seem -- as we see in the Valar -- are drawn to one another. In the Children of Illuvatar, as in animals (although they too may have some inkling of love), procreation is the result and apparently the reason for this; but according to Tolkien this love between male and female also has something to do with companionship and male-female 'difference of temper' attraction at the fundamental level. Thus, procreation is yet another wonderful aspect of these relationships.

Perhaps the Valar even had this, in a way. They did not procreate, but they certainly created many incredible things in their companionship. Also, in adition to this, there was their paternal/maternal guardianship and parentship of the Children -- who they, in a sense, brought up; this is obvious in the case of the Elves, and their light also spread to the Men of the Edain and kin at least.

Either way, it would seem that male and female 'tempers' are complimentary and naturally, fundamentally bound together at all levels.

[ August 08, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]