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Old 08-19-2004, 04:03 AM   #58
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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FD-SL-05: Okay, that means we will try the outlaws im Menegroth and if that does not workout we will go back to Q30.

FD-SL-06: Agreed, the bridge is to risky and does not work due to the Nivrim problem.

FD-SL-11: Okay, even if I don't see that fit the later Thingol we will not introduce any one to urge Thingol not to thrust the hoard away.

FD-SL-12 & FD-SL-13: Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Now I don't object to using the Lost Tales as a source for a more full narrative - we did that in FoG. But now it looks like in many places we have to weigh that full narrative against canonical safety. In places where the TN narrative is quite reliable, and agrees very closely with Q30, we can safely use it. But whenever there is doubt as to how precisely to implement the TN material, we ought to be able to fall back on Q30 itself.
I am wary because a lot of times so far in the discussion the inclusion or exclusion of plot points from TN seems to come down to "I would like to use this story" or "if we use this, we can justify it" rather than "this story is clearly still valid".
My reason to go back to a storyline discussion was very similar to that: Working on the text it self one is often carried way by the details and lose the validity out of sight. I see the further work done on this chapter now in quiet a nother way than before: First I saw that we would take a draft from Maedhros or my one and start working form that, but now I would rather take Q30 change what must be change to creat the storyline produce here and then start to add details in accordance to our rules form whatever source. Our preliminary drafts will in the end only help to identify the materials that could be added for the sake of details.

FD-SL-20 Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
But in my reading, this alone is sufficient to account for the Dwarves' access to Doriath;
That is clearly the case in Q30. But the famous Note does not give any information how Thingol was lured outside the girdle. It does also not deny that treachery played a part in that fight. I do niether say that we should specify the "how" nor do I support that we should go back to the simple plot that the treason of the Elves circumvented the girdle. As I said before, if we take the second opption given by the note that Thingol is lured to go to war outside, than the treason of the elves has no place. But if we hold the hunt and take the first opption given in the note, the Dwarves would need very exact information about the hunt planed for that year, and that was exactly what the elves brought to Naugladur in TN. Thus I think, if we stick to the hunt the treason of some elves is still a valid story.
It all comes down to the question if we will take "Thingol is lured outside {...}" or "Thingol is {...} induced to go to war beyond his borders". The first could incooperate much more of the old plot (like the hunt and the treason of the Elves). The second would be a reduction to that statment without any further detail. And it would in my view at last creat a problem of believability since it sems impossible for me that the Elves of Doriath are defeated in a katastrophic way by the host of Nogord in an planed and open war.
How we can use the note without choosing one of the opptions in a narrative is beyond my imagination.

FD-SL-23 Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
There's no need for our text to specify whether the Girdle is gone and therefore Melian departs or Melian departs and therefore the Girdle is gone. And in any case, why should she not go and bring the message to Beren and Luthien?
I agree fulheartedly on the first part and I will try to answere the second part: If Melian does not remove the girdle and goes after the death of Thingol to Ossiriand to find Beren and Luthein and than departes we have a timeline problem: during the time that elapsed between Thingols death and Melians depeature, what would the dwarves do? linger on the border of Doriath? That would ruin the surprise effect that is in my view needed for their success. If we have Melian by choice remove the girdle before she goes to Beren than we creat a problem of motiv: Why should she remove the girdle or if she did why should she then send Beren to a revenge. Thus the only logical explanation as Maedhros has understood for Melian to bring the meassage to Beren would be that she losed here ability to protect Doriath and sought his help to rescue what ever could be rescued.
This would in my view mean that when we let Melian bring the message to Beren we would however ambiguous or text meight be implicit state that Melian lost her power with the death of Thingol. I do not say that this is impossible, but I would aviod any statement in that direction even if only given implicit.
For that reason I find it savvest to let her depart without a visit in Ossiriand as it si in Sil77.

Respectfully
Findegil
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