[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

Its clear that Eru intruded directly into the action of Arda in order to destroy the Numenoreans - something he had never done directly before (unless you count the giving of life to the Fathers of the Dwarves.

Or if we count the appearance of the Eruhini, the action of Eru's imperishable flame at the heart of the world, his converses with Manwe, all the other interventions Manwe saw in his vision and all the new things that appear in each new age, which dont have Ainulindale as their source. There is no single evidence that Eru stops being interested in creation, quite the contrary. Although this wrong belief is cherrished by Melkor and Sauron.

Originally Posted by davem

Eru is a character & is not excluded from from criticism by the reader even if he is excluded from such criticism by the inhabitants of the Secondary World.

I am really curious what means you have of judging a transcendent being, whether in a real or imaginary setting. That is a territory which neither science nor mind can enter. We don't know the purposes and the effects of actions - esspecially since he is the ultimate alchemist, able to transform his actions from divine punishments to divine gifts - or other's actions ("but it seemed that [Melkor's music's] most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern"). I am really looking forward to your answer.

Originally Posted by davem

Well, he has some characters in his invented world warning other characters in his invented world against finding faults & assigning guilt to Manwe. He (much as I respect him) doesn't get to tell the reader or critic not to do that.

It wasn't characters to state that, it were his own notes, in Myths Transformed. That you continue to disregard the position the author gives to certain characters in his own created world is your own choice.

Originally Posted by davem

Because you're judging him on what he does - you can't possibly know the depths of his being - one who existed before the beginning of the World & who took part in its creation. You look at his actions & judge his character - why is this wrong in the case of Eru?

Because it's a false analogy, the two can never be compared; one is the All-source, the other is just a creation.

Originally Posted by davem

I was talking about the end of the First Age - which seems pretty much of a walk over. Melkor had dissipated so much of himself into Arda that he was bound to his body, cowering in his own dungeons.

I really don't follow why you are using this "red herring" on me. I was initially talking about Melkor's power at the time when he started his subjugation of the matter of Arda, and now you are bringing the discussion to the end of this story.

Originally Posted by davem

Why was it 'almost inevitable'? He was writing the story.

Yes, he was writting it with the purpose of reflecting a splinter of Light, hence the almost inevitability.

But it was (by Tolkien's admission) always 'marred' in the sense that it contained Melkor's dissonance in its creation, & his malice in its making, not to mention his slow infecting of it. Its 'unmarred' state was an illusion.

I am afraid we both consumed this part of the discussion. We agree that marring was potentially there, but not yet manifest to the inhabitants of Arda. I propose we agree to disagree on how real the potential marring was and how un-real the un-marring state was.

Originally Posted by davem

And to jump to the subject of another thread, is Melkor not also 'one of his own'?

An interesting thought. I would argue that, considering the vast differential of power between Melkor on one side (and possibly Sauron and the rest of the fallen maiar) and the Eruhini on the other side, that Eru's adamancy would extend solely to the second cathegory - they have little if any chances in fighting corruption.

Originally Posted by davem

I'm not expressing an 'opinion' one way or another - I'm challenging statements to see if they stand up - which, I think is exactly what you're doing with me.

Yes, but you are ignoring relevant information, you are refusing the given context and so you are effectively taking things out of context. I doubt the value of deriving conclusions from such an enterprise.