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Old 02-22-2007, 05:54 AM   #238
Raynor
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This is to imply that Sauron was wholly responsible for the Numenoreans corruption.
That is to ignore all the previous actions of the numenoreans; they already resorted to oppressing, they stopped following the old ways, respecting the valar and their status, or the offerings to Eru. Three great numenorean lords became ringwraiths. They punished those who welcomed the elven ships. All these happened before Sauron came to Numenor.

Given the adulation of their ancestry, their knowledge of who Sauron truly was would have been second only to the elves, yet they still suffered him in their country, suffered him near their king, suffered his evil teachings - which, to those who were still good, the faithful, they were abominations. Their observance of true faith was a shield to Sauron. The others, welcomed him. Not to resist Sauron and his doings (through observance of rules - let us remember that in the Atrabeth Eru said : "Call on me and I shall hear, for I am watching over you") means assenting. There can't be a middle way for a moral person. Numenoreans weren't victims, they were accessories, if not perpetrators of Sauron's corruption in Numenor. One cannot expect salvation from God if one welcomes (while one still can welcome) evil.
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Because they were innocent & didn't realise what they were doing - which was Tolkien's point.
His _stated_ point for the story was Man's satiety with good - hence his propensity towards evil. May I ask if you read it?
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Its still not a myth. A myth is the 'story' behind an actual religion, & reflected the worldview of an entire culture.
Then again, even if we accept this as the general definition (I particulary don't, and I would like to see an official definition), we must take into account what myth was for Tolkien in particular. He saw myth-making as a modern day too activity, with a significant spiritual potential. And that is the relevant aspect of Tolkien's myths in regards to the relation between Eru and God.
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Maybe he had a thesaurus.
That's a cryptic statement to me, as a non native English speaker, and I suppose it was meant to be sarcastic. Perhaps you could be kind enough to state your argument in more detail.
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Its a story. If Tolkien had wanted to 'do a Lewis' & write Christian apologetics, or 'reveal the ways of God to man' he would have done so. In any case, by writing a story he invites the reader to take it as a story, & not a sermon.
This would ignore one of his main concerns: writting about fundamental subjects in essence, not in form - his struggle with allegory.
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He could have simply done with Sauron what was done with Melkor & removed him to the void - except that he needed Sauron for LotR, so he had to invent a reason for keeping him around in the world - a pretty unconvincing one if you ask me.
Sauron was a problem that Men had to deal with; it was mainly the numenoreans who dealt with him, either at the end of the second or the third age - with direct help from high elves and istari. Later, Men would face other incarnations of evil, but none of mythological status - but they also won't have mythological aide by their side (such as istari, or, arguably, elves). The level of struggle decreases in time, but it is balanced - esspecially if true allegiance to Eru is observed.
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I stated Hell did not exist in M-e as a metaphysical reality.
Metaphysical as in what? Non-material, "spiritual"? We also have the second world, of the spirits, in which wraiths and apparently elves access. I am sure Sauron too has power there too, as elves have too. It is said in the Silmarillion that Sauron was threatened by Luthien by something that can only be described as a non-material hell ("'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower"). Anyway, I am looking forward to your clarification.
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It states the Valar intervened to get the safely to the shores of M-e after the devastation, not that they intervened to get them to the harbours of Numenor.
The original statement was: "by grace of the Valar Elendil and his sons and their people were spared from the ruin of that day". The particularisation of your interpretation, that they were helped only in the voyage, but not in escaping, doesn't stem from this, esspecially immediately since after the "grace of the valar" statement it is said how Elendil escaped the soldiers. Also, it was Amandil's design, shared to the faithfuls, that they should prepare to escape.
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