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Old 10-01-2005, 08:59 PM   #12
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
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A few more comments for the moment.

NA-TI-08.5: We might as well make this a footnote.

NA-EX-27.5: Again, we have "alternate" forms without any indication what their chronological relations are. I can at the moment think of no later source wherein we'd find the name, so I suppose we have no reason to think any form superior to the others. I suppose in that case, it's best to go with "Nibin-noeg".

NA-EX-27.7: This also looks okay to me as a footnote.

NA-TI-09: I'm not sure that the alternative form of the curse must be used - it's possible that Androg's curse simply didn't come true. It's Dwarves' curses that one is supposed to have to fear, not Mens'! Again, I wish we knew more about the various texts of the Narn and why Christopher used the version he did and called the other an "alternative". I suppose that since we don't have any information that suggests either version to be of higher priority, we may as well use the alternative.

NA-TI-11:

Quote:
Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; NA-TI-11 <Sil77 {For}for Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> {nor did} Túrin did not rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar.
I think that the insertion of this material makes "Turin did not rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar" sound out of place. I think that better would be:

Quote:
Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; nor did Túrin rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar.<Sil77 {For} Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.>
NA-EX-28.5:
Quote:
Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. NA-EX- 28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin did learn /that there {were}[had been] ingots of gold disguised as roots/ in Mîm's sack when they had captured him/, and {refers to}/ that/ Mîm {seeking}/had at that day sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"}.> Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>
This definitely leaves the last sentence in an awkward position. This sentence must follow "Mim was well-pleased . . ." or the "Less pleased" loses its reference. We could try:

Quote:
Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye. NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /But Túrin learned /that there {were}[had been] ingots of gold disguised as roots/ in Mîm's sack when they had found him/, and {refers to}/ that/ Mîm {seeking}/had that day sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the flat stones{"}.>
But I'm not so sure that the inclusion of the note here is justified. There's no indication that Turin was to learn about the ingots of gold. I think it might be safer simply to omit it; the gold plays no further part in the story anyway.

On to the previous discussion:

NA-EX-19: Ah, I missed that alteration in the sequence of assaults.

NA-EX-21, -22: I suppose you're right.

NA-TI-07: Good idea; using it there seems to work.

NA-TI-07.5: I think you are right. I had been thinking of the "Vale of Sirion" as a smaller region - as, more or less, the area near the confluence of Taeglin and Sirion. But I suppose it makes more sense to think of it as a long valley cut by Sirion all the way down to Andram.

Still, I think that the phrasing of the passage as it now stands suggests a contradiction (even though there isn't one); I would rather make it:

Quote:
Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country. NA-TI-07.2 <NA; note 11{they}They remained in the Vale of Sirion, {and} [but] {indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version they} went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the [Aelin-uial] and the Fens of Sirion{"}; but the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
As long as we keep the movement southward, I don't see why we should not also keep the point that they went as far as Aelin-uial but turned back and came more or less back to their "previous haunts".
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