[Findegil]

First of all: Aiwendil it is nice to have your attention in this discussion.
Posted by Aiwendil:

I had been thinking that I would avoid commenting at all until Earendil was finished, but as things here look to be going ahead with or without me, I will see if I can make some kind of response later today.

My appologies if I by posting my storyline posts,I robbed you of the last free minutes of the day. I consider my self for nearly 2 weeks in which I had the posts nearly ready on my PC to hold back until Eärendil was settled. But in the end thought the situation would have been even worth if it would have gone further with me commenting in privat to Meadhros more and more elaborated drafts of FoD. Seeing that Maedhros had worked out in "secret" 2 further drafts of the story, I strongly felt the need of an open discussion.

Your generall remark that you would rather would like to go with Q30 than add things without need from TT and TN I can accept concerning the storyline and I would in some points even go further than you have done in this, as will be seen below. But as ever when the storyline is once settled I would go and fetch details of the text from LT to elaborat our text as far as possible. But still that is not the goal of the discussion in this thread.

Now to the points you commented on:
FD-SL-03: I am okay here with the story of Q30. But I would have a hard time to use the text of Q30 without any addition.

FD-SL-05: I think the evidence we have against Q30 in having the outlaws killed in quarrels on the road is hard enough. Of course we could argue that the change is not workable since the fate of the outlaws could not be solved by us, but that seemed a to conservativ fiew to me.

FD-SL-06: The secret bridge was not an invention of mine! UT; Part one: The First Age; chapter II: Narn I Hîn Húrin; sub-chapter: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond:

... Hope then returned to Mablung; and they went on now together steering northward and eastward, for there was no road back into Doriath in the south, and since the fall of Nargothrond the ferry-wards were forbidden to set any across save those that came from within.
...
And now at length after many days they came nigh to the west border of Doriath, somewaht south of Teiglin; for they intended to pass the fences of the little land of Thingol beyond Sirion and so come to the guarded bridge near the inflowing of Esgalduin. ...

The bridge would be the natural choice to come into Doriath from the west. The only other way would be to go back north, cross the Brithiach
and enter Doriath from Dimbar. The weckness of my idea is that not only the bridge is guarded but there are also "the fences of the littel land of Thingol beyond Sirion", Nivrim as it is called on the map.

FD-SL-08: For 3 is the option to go. We will have a hard time to produce the text for that, but it is the most promissing way at least. If we in the end find out that it is really un-workable than and only than 1. must be the chioce in my view.

FD-SL-11: Posted by Aiwendil:

I don't see any reason to doubt the Q30 story here - nor in fact any reason that we need to elaborate on what is said there.

In my view I did not contradict anythink that was siad in Q30. But I am reading you right here, that you would even drop Melains warning about the hoard?

FD-SL-12 FD-SL-13: Posted by Aiwendil:

Again, Q30 ought to be taken as authoritative. What we have there is ambiguous. I wonder about the necessity of re-introducing Lost Tales material merely for the sake of detail, when that material is so highly dubious. Again, I think that this is a place where we may have to just use Q30 as it is.

Talking about storyline I am willing to accept that, but when it come to the actual text I can not imaging how we can go with a Q30-like version of Fod between a full told Narn plus WH and a full told FoG.

FD-SL-17: Okay, it might be that I have ofer interpreted here the lines in The Hobbit. If you both like to have the battle between the Dwarven-simth and the Elves we will use it.

FD-SL-19: About the death of Mîm: I think it would have some point for the Dwarves of Nogrod. Considering that the killing of the Pety-Dwarves by the Sindar was a grive just laid to sleep between the Sindar and the Dwarves as is told in Quendi and Eldar. Thus we have Thingols people hunt the Petty dwarves down to a few, and the Húrin killed the last and Thingol as the one who gets the advantage of all that. But it is a minor point and I could go without it.

FD-SL-20: Posted by Aiwendil:

I don't think we can use the treachery of the Elves. It's simply out of place in the later Silmarillion. Putting it back in may be possible, but there's insufficient justification for it; it would be little better than fan fiction.

It is interesting how the view point is changed here. The treachery of the Elves is in full flavor in Q30! How can it be consider fan-fictional to hold it, if as you have argued as jet Q30 is the leading text for our storyline? The note about the passage of the Girdle of Melian does only provide evedence that the treachery was a sufficent tool to surround the problem of the Girdle of Melain, but does not say that there was no treachery involved.

FD-SL-21: Here we have the same situation as before. The hunt is part of the Q30 narrative. Thus it was never droped in the fulltold narrative. It is clear if we will use the second opption given in the note ("Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders") we must skip the hunt. But were is the reason for not using the first oppoin given in the note and stick to the hunt? Beside the fact that we would be more true to Q30 which is Tolkiens latest telling of the story, we would get some additional advantages: As I see the millitary situation in Beleriand the Dwarves of Nogrod would not have been able to fight a war against the army of Doriath with out some trick. And that is also hinted at in TN and Sil77. But if the attack is unfore-seen it can be argued that they would had have a chance to gain the success they clearly had.
Posted by Maedhors:

I would personally want to follow the idea of the old hunt story but now I think that I can follow that because of the slaying of the Elves in Menegroth, Thingol was induced to go to war beyond the borders of Doriath.

I can't see the point here. Why is it less probable that Thingol goes to a hunt when some Elves are killed in the fight with the dwarve-smith? Doriath had long since been fighting at the borders as we learn from the Narn. Thus a few dead Elves in Menegroth would not stop the festival hunt. Okay, I can see the fight in Menegroth could have given Thingol a reasson to go to war beyond the borders. An dif you meant that it is clearly a point, but none that we could take up in the text.

By the way: Posted by Aiwendil:

Or, if we permit a stylistic revision, "Hearing of the anger of the Dwarves, Thingol went forth to war beyond the borders of Doriath."

If this is consider a stylistic revision, than I am the conservatist editor among us!

FD-SL-22: The detail of Mablung warding the Silmaril in Menegroth is an editorial invention of Christopher Tolkien. The question might be if Thingol does waer the Nauglamir when he is traped by the Dwarves. If not and the Nauglamir is hoarded in Menegroth we could consider Mablung as a special guard for it. But I see the scene thus: Thingols has gone to a festival hunt in his best fashion wearing the new wrought Nauglamir. Withhim are all the Lords and noble Elves of Doriath including the cheif of his thanes Mablung but not a grat army. Then he is lured out side the girdle an attacked by an superiority of Dwarves. As is everybodies duty all defend the king with their life until all are foredone with Mablung as his chief thanes dying as the last defender beside the king himself.
If the hunt is used Mablungs place is by the King as he was in the original hunt for Charcharoth.

FD-SL-22: But in Sil77 Melian does not go her self to Ossiriand but bides Mablung to send a message. It is right that Sil77suggests that here power was not removed willingly but I would fell much saver if we could left that point open.

Respectfully
Findegil