The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - **Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

Aiwendil · 08-23-2003, 07:34 PM

I have given this a lot of thought as well, and I think that in general my conclusions are the same as Maedhros's.

I agree that the best course with regard to the death of Thingol is to have him go to war beyond the borders and be slain. This is, at any rate, the latest wish of Tolkien on the matter (though obviously it was only a very rough idea). Christopher's version is, as I've said before, an elegant and well-contrived solution to the difficulty; but I'd rather stay as close as possible to JRRT's plot.

Actually, we do have the scene in Lost Tales where Hurin enters Doriath. It is, if I recall correctly, placed at the end of the Tale of Turin rather than in the Tale of the Nauglafring. Of course, it is very different from the later versions - yet I think a lot of the writing might be salvaged and used to fill out our version.

What I think is the real difficult point here is the fate of Hurin's outlaws. I do not like Christopher's solution here - simply to drop the outlaws entirely and reduce the treasure brought by Hurin down to the Nauglamir. It seems clear from 'Wanderings' that the outlaws were to be retained. On the other hand, I completely agree with Christopher that in the Q30 version, where the outlaws die in quarrels on the road, the gesture is completely ruined by Hurin's having to have Thingol's people bear the treasure into Menegroth and then cast it at his feet.

A case could certainly be made for retaining the Q30 version, however inferior it is. But another solution would be this: retain the outlaws and have them go with Hurin to Doriath and cast the treasure at Thingol's feet, as in the old Tale. Hurin leaves in anger. But then, whereas in the Tale the outlaws fight with Thingol's people, we could have them simply forswear the treasure and leave Thingol's halls in peace.

The weakness with such a course, naturally, is the completely fabricated plot point of the outlaws leaving in peace. But it has the virtue of retaining the role of the outlaws (which, by all indications, was never questioned by Tolkien) and avoiding the extreme awkwardness of the Q30 version.

I would also certainly eliminate two points that seem to have been fabricated for the 77. First, return to the earlier story where the Nauglamir was wrought by the Dwarves out of the treasure of Nargothrond, rather than being an ancient artifact that lay in the hoard. Second, remove the moment where Melian lifts the spell of Morgoth from Hurin, since (unless I'm forgetting something) there is no indication that this was to occur.

08-23-2003, 07:34 PM	#10
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I have given this a lot of thought as well, and I think that in general my conclusions are the same as Maedhros's. I agree that the best course with regard to the death of Thingol is to have him go to war beyond the borders and be slain. This is, at any rate, the latest wish of Tolkien on the matter (though obviously it was only a very rough idea). Christopher's version is, as I've said before, an elegant and well-contrived solution to the difficulty; but I'd rather stay as close as possible to JRRT's plot. Actually, we do have the scene in Lost Tales where Hurin enters Doriath. It is, if I recall correctly, placed at the end of the Tale of Turin rather than in the Tale of the Nauglafring. Of course, it is very different from the later versions - yet I think a lot of the writing might be salvaged and used to fill out our version. What I think is the real difficult point here is the fate of Hurin's outlaws. I do not like Christopher's solution here - simply to drop the outlaws entirely and reduce the treasure brought by Hurin down to the Nauglamir. It seems clear from 'Wanderings' that the outlaws were to be retained. On the other hand, I completely agree with Christopher that in the Q30 version, where the outlaws die in quarrels on the road, the gesture is completely ruined by Hurin's having to have Thingol's people bear the treasure into Menegroth and then cast it at his feet. A case could certainly be made for retaining the Q30 version, however inferior it is. But another solution would be this: retain the outlaws and have them go with Hurin to Doriath and cast the treasure at Thingol's feet, as in the old Tale. Hurin leaves in anger. But then, whereas in the Tale the outlaws fight with Thingol's people, we could have them simply forswear the treasure and leave Thingol's halls in peace. The weakness with such a course, naturally, is the completely fabricated plot point of the outlaws leaving in peace. But it has the virtue of retaining the role of the outlaws (which, by all indications, was never questioned by Tolkien) and avoiding the extreme awkwardness of the Q30 version. I would also certainly eliminate two points that seem to have been fabricated for the 77. First, return to the earlier story where the Nauglamir was wrought by the Dwarves out of the treasure of Nargothrond, rather than being an ancient artifact that lay in the hoard. Second, remove the moment where Melian lifts the spell of Morgoth from Hurin, since (unless I'm forgetting something) there is no indication that this was to occur.