LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 05 - The White Rider

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The main event in this chapter is something very unusual and definitely mythological – the return of a dead character. Tolkien masterfully builds up the suspense begun by the appearance of the old man in the previous chapter and lets his readers share the impressions of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli – thinking that it is Saruman and attempting to defend themselves against his danger; uncertainty; and finally overwhelming joy.

The chapter begins with the search for Merry and Pippin – and ends without having found them, though there is certainty of their safety. Aragorn shows his ability as “the greatest … huntsman of this age of the world” by not only finding their tracks but interpreting them rightly. Legolas’ interpretation gives the Elf a rare opportunity to show his humor. The Three Hunters enter yet another location of Middle-earth that is considered dangerous, though fortunately not for them.

Much of the chapter consists of dialogue, especially Gandalf’s retelling of his fate after the meeting. He also puts other events in their right context with his explanations. We get a glimpse of the greatness of his nature and are introduced to Shadowfax.

For first time readers of the book, this chapter is very suspenseful; I remember almost holding my breath while reading it. How did you experience it? What parts are important to you and for the story? What do you think of the character development?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Let me add one more important thing in this chapter that we can discuss - Galadriel's messages to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. The first two are prophetic poems (in rhyme form), with rather depressing and hidden meanings, the one to Gimli is brief - do you think what she says about laying his axe to the right tree has a meaning that is important to the plot, as the other two messages do?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

One of the aspects about LOTR which I like is the occasional "history
and/or background" observations/commentaries. Gandalf's here are
especially revealing, especially explaining what would otherwise seem
rather curious, Sauron's frantic haste in attacking Minas Tirith and his
overall psychological makeup.

...he does not yet perceive our purpose clearly. He supposes that we were all going to Minas Tirith; for that is what he would himself have done in our place...Indeed he is in great fear, not knowing what mighty one may suddenly appear, wielding the Ring, and assailing him with war...Wise fool. For if he had used all his power to guard Mordor, so that none could enter, and bent all his guile to the hunting of the Ring, then indeed all hope would have faded: neither Ring nor bearer could long have eluded him.

Also, the above observation of "not knowing what mighty one" seems at variance with the general view, shared by Tolkien himself in "Letters", that
probably only Gandalf could use the Ring against him (ignore PJ's movie
view in toto about no one using the Ring, that's an overinterpretaion/simplistic
view). Gandalf's statement here, which seems to be quite definitive (and by Gandalf the White) would seem to say that a number of candidates might use the Ring: Denethor, Theoden, Gandalf, Aragorn, Faramir, etc. And how would the Ring react to a woman wielding it (Eowyn)? Perhaps that would really put Sauron
off his game.

[davem]

I suppose a few things struck me instantly - the first, Gandalf's claim that he was 'sent back'. Tolkien comments on this in Letter 156:

"Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done." Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the "gods" whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed "out of thought and time". Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, ''unclothed like a child" (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the clothed like a child" (not discarnate), and so ready to recelve the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's Power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment. ''.

So, it wasn't the Valar - not even Manwe himself - who sent Gandalf 'back' into the world. It must have been Eru Himself. It seems that Gandalf literally died in his confrontation with the Balrog, & unlike an Elf it seems that he was not destined simply return to Valinor to be clothed in another form & remain forever within the Circles of the World. He truly died & passed into the presence of Eru. This is odd, in the light of other statements by Tolkien that once the Ainur had entered into the world they had to remain there till its end.

Then we have his summoning of Shadowfax:

Gandalf caressed him. 'It is a long way from Rivendell, my friend' he said; 'but you are wise and swift and come at need. Far let us ride now together, and part not in thiis world again.

Its interesting to speculate on how Shadowfax knew of Gandalf's 'need' of him. Perhaps the answer can be found in an earlier draft:

'The earliest extant account of Gandalf's summons to Shadowfax with his three great whistles, and his coming across the plain to the eaves of Fangom with Arod and Hasofel returning is already exactly as in IT (see p. 432); and this seems to fit the story in the present text, for Gandalf says to Shadowfax 'It is a long way from Rivendell, my friend; but you are wise and swift, and come at need,' and he says to Legolas 'I bent my thought upon him, bidding him to make haste; for yesterday he was far away in the south of this land.' (Treason of Isengard)

Perhaps we have here another example of Osanwe? Gandalf summons Shadowfax 'in thought' (as Aragorn will later summon the Dunedain. Of course this opens something of a can of worms - does Shadowfax have a 'soul'? Is he capable of Osanwe himself?

Finally for now, a fascinating insight into one of the powers of wizards from an early draft:

In the first draft Gimli asks: 'That old man. You say Saruman is abroad. Was it you or Saruman that we saw last night?' and Gandalf replies: 'If you saw an old man last night, you certainly did not see me. But as we seem to look so much alike that you wished to make an incurable dent in my hat, I must guess that you saw Saruman [or a I vision>] or some wraith of his making. [Struck out: I did not know that he lingered here so long.]' Against Gandalf's words my father wrote in the margin: Vision of Gandalfs thought. There is clearly an important due here to the curious ambiguity surrounding the apparition of the night before, if one knew how to interpret it; but the words are not perfectly clear. They obviously represent a new thought: arising perhaps from Gandalf's suggestion that if it was not Saruman himself that they saw it was a 'vision' or 'wraith' that he had made, the apparition is now to emanate from Gandalf himself. But of whom was it a vision? Was it an embodied 'emanation' of Gandalf, proceeding from Gandalf himself, that they saw? 'I look into his unhappy mind and I see his doubt and fear', Gandalf has said; It seems more likely perhaps that through his deep concentration on Saruman he had 'projected' an image of Saruman which the three companions could momentarily see. I have found no other evidence to cast light on this most curious element in the tale; but it may be noted that in the time-scheme deriving from the time of the writing of 'Helm's Deep and 'The Road to Isengard' my father noted of that night: 'Aragorn and his companions spend night on the battle-field, and see ''old man" (Saruman). ' (Treason)

The idea that Gandalf could (unconsciously) 'project' an image of Saruman which others could see is fascinating. More Osanwe here? The Istari, it seems are capable of both astral & thought projection, but the former seems the most interesting in the light of Osanwe - was it possible to 'detatch' the Fea from the Hroa? If so, was this a 'technique' which could be mastered by others? Could it even be made to happen to someone against their will? This could explain the Nazgul - were they Hroa-less Fea?

Perhaps there's a clue to this in the Witch King's threat to Eowyn:

'Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

Perhaps he's threatening her with what happened to him at Sauron's hands?

[Bêthberry]

Ah, dear, obligations, obligations. For now let me provide this one observation about this chapter.

I cannot now read this chapter, particularly Aragorn's and Legolas's discussion of the interpretation of "signs" , with Gimli's contributions as well, without being reminded of something. Their querulousness over the riddle of the knife and lembas crumbs, the cut ropes and the drying mallorn leaf, reminds me so much of Downer's habits of yaying and nay-saying over points of interpretation of LotR.

I mean, really, when you read of the interpretations of "the bound prisoner" and "some other signs near at hand that you have not considered", and of "how do you suppose" and "that is my tale. Others might be devised", I cannot help but recall the Canonicity thread, the various threads over evil, and of course the current Balrog's wings and elf earz threads.

I suspect here Tolkien is giving us a slight Inkling of the kinds of discussions which the walls of the Bird and Baby witnessed. All seriously done, of course. But oh how that word "signs" has undergone some considerable discussion since these words were put to press.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

do you think what she says about laying his axe to the right tree has a meaning that is important to the plot

If I were a Freudian... but luckily, I'm not one

Hence, I believe it is just a general piece of advice and, at the same time, expression of special sympathy Galadriel has for the dwarf. It almost feels like she's doing her [kind of] duty towards Legolas and Aragorn - the former as a neighbouring elven Kindgom's ruling house member, the latter as kinsman and future son-in-law (and important political entity, or showing promise of becoming one in the future).

With Gimli, on the other hand, it feels like she simply likes the chap, as an interesting, a bit strange, curious, and above all, cute person. Something like a flirt, but Eru forbid think otherwise, innocent flirt. A mother too? Or as an aunty with grown-up children may have special affection for a younger nephew. Galadriel is almost always very lofty, goddess-like (even in her temptations). I reckon Gimli is a medium to show us she's a woman as well, however unwomanlike she may seem (despite her beauty, or even bacuase of her beauty) at times.

[The Saucepan Man]

A few scattered thoughts, as always.

It struck me that it is greatly to Tolkien's credit that, Gimli having sought to explain the old man that appeared to them as a "phantom of Saruman", he can have Aragorn reply "It is likely enough" and get away with it. He has built up the credibility of the fantasy to such an extent by this point that we do not question the fact that Gimli's musings on phantoms might provide a "likely" explanation.

I was interested in the quote that davem gave from Treason of Isengard:

It seems more likely perhaps that through his deep concentration on Saruman he had 'projected' an image of Saruman which the three companions could momentarily see.

I have always been somewhat disinclined to see the old man as Saruman, given the startling similarity of his description to that of Gandalf when he does appear to them in this Chapter, the fact that the old man appears to mean no harm to them and the fact that the horses are (as it turns out) crying with joy rather than fear. I did therefore think that one possible explanation of the incident is that the old man is a "projected" image of Gandalf, either conjured up jointly in the minds of the Three Hunters (a kind of "mass halucination" which foreshadows Gandalf's reappearance to them) or an image projected by Gandalf himself (unconsciously - hence his later lack of awareness of the incident). It is interesting to see that Tolkien was thinking along similar lines, albeit with Saruman rather than Gandalf as the "projected" image.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I cannot now read this chapter, particularly Aragorn's and Legolas's discussion of the interpretation of "signs" , with Gimli's contributions as well, without being reminded of something. Their querulousness over the riddle of the knife and lembas crumbs, the cut ropes and the drying mallorn leaf, reminds me so much of Downer's habits of yaying and nay-saying over points of interpretation of LotR.

Which is probably why I enjoy this part of the Chapter so much. I love the way in which Tolkien constructs a riddle and then solves it via Aragorn. And these passages serve a multiple purpose. They once again point up Aragorn's skill at reading the signs that have been left behind (surpassing Legolas in this regard), provide some welcome humour (particularly in Legolas' comments concerning the propensity of Hobbits to value food in the direst of circumstances and in his light-hearted analyis of the clues), and they engage the reader (even though, or perhaps precisely because, the reader already knows the solution to the riddle).

One thing does mystify me in connection with the Three Hunters' eventual meeting with Gandalf. Although it clearly serves to heighten the tension of the moment, I do wonder why Gandalf chose to be so darn mysterious in his approach, keeping his face hooded and greeting them like strangers. It is almost as if he wants them to mistake him for Saruman. Is he perhaps playing a trick on them? Or even teaching them a lesson - not to go on the attack when not in full possession of the facts? But the latter explanation would go against his later comment:

But, of course, I never blamed you for your welcome of me. How could I do so, who have so often counselled my friends to suspect even their own hands when dealing with the Enemy.

So, why is Gandalf so mysterious here?

Moving onto the much discussed topic of Boromir and his redemption, there is a nice comment here by Gandalf:

But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake.

Surely a clear indication that Boromir was in the end free of the Ring and that his valiant defence of Merry and Pippin does indeed redeem him. For me, this makes it clear that, when Aragorn tells the dying Boromir that he has conquered, he is talking of Boromir's will rather than his strength in arms against the orcs.

Most of the remainder of the Chapter is taken up with Gandalf's tale - a wonderful piece of exposition (surely an authorly crime ) which brings together much of what we have learned in recent Chapters and explain precisely how they affect the state of play between the Free Peoples and their Enemies.

I found the following passage concerning Gandalf interesting:

He rose and gazed out eastward, shading his eyes, as if he saw things far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. "No," he said in a soft voice, "it has gone beyond our reach. Of that at least we can be glad. We can no longer be tempted to use the Ring. We must go down to face a peril near despair, yet that dealy peril is removed.

It seemed to me, on reading this again, that Gandalf is here contemplating the possibility that, were it not beyond his reach, he might be tempted to use the Ring against Sauron. The deceits of the Ring are great indeed if even Gandalf recognises that he might have succumbed to them (as a companion to the Ringbearer, rather than as the Ringbearer himself). Does this not put Boromir's downfall in rather a different context?

Finally, to pick up on a few points made earlier:

Originally Posted by Estelyn

do you think what she says about laying his axe to the right tree has a meaning that is important to the plot, as the other two messages do?

Is this perhaps related to Gimli mistaking Gandalf for Saruman? Might Galadriel be warning him to be sure of his enemy before going on the offensive? Although, if so, it is rather late with regard to his mistaking Gandalf's identity, and it would seem to go against the comment by Gandalf quoted above. Alternatively, it might be a warning to Gimli not to go about hacking trees with abandon when in Fangorn - although this would merely be repeating Legolas' warning to him on entering the wood.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Also, the above observation of "not knowing what mighty one" seems at variance with the general view, shared by Tolkien himself in "Letters", that probably only Gandalf could use the Ring against him

Although there is perhaps a distinction to be drawn between what Sauron might fear and what would happen in practice. Sauron may have overestimated the power that the Ring could confer upon one less powerful than him.

Originally Posted by davem

This is odd, in the light of other statements by Tolkien that once the Ainur had entered into the world they had to remain there till its end.

But wasn't Gandalf a special case, in that Eru's direct intervention was required to "reclothe" him and allow him to return incarnate to carry on his mission? Perhaps, in light of this, Gandalf's spirit needed to travel beyond the Circles of the World, even though this might not be the "normal" fate of an incarnate Ainu upon the death of his or her physical body.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

This chapter is peculiarly close to me, as it provides me with a Middle-earth version of one of my interests: foreign policy analysis. Of course, then, “foreign” policy depends on one man (or Maia), and, by reading the mind of the leader, Gandalf was able to predict the actions or reactions of the “nation” the leader rules over.

Oh, and one more thing: It seems that the Professor himself (using Gandalf) had answered the age-old Balrog-wing question:

[Gandalf: ]Time is short. But if there were a year to spend, I would not tell you all.

LR III 5

[mark12_30]

Straggling footnotes....

One of my favorite lines from Legolas:

Being pleased with his skill, he then sat down and quietly ate some waybread! That at least is enough to show that he was a hobbit...

Here Gimli reminds me of Boromir, at the eaves of Lorien, asking for "a plain road though it led through a hedge of swords"--

‘Then we must go in, too,’ said Gimli. ‘But I do not like the look of this Fangorn: and we were warned against it. I wish the chase had led anywhere else!’

Another endearing comment from Legolas:

I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.’

Here Aragorn defines loyalty and duty. In light of his hopes to marry Arwen, it is an eye-opener; he is first and foremost a man of principle:

said Gimli.".... If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use to them, except to sit down beside them and show our friendship by starving together.’
‘If that is indeed all we can do, then we must do that,’ said Aragorn. ‘Let us go on.’

Another nice quote from Legolas:

Few can foresee whither their road will lead them, till they come to its end.

I was delighted by this joviality from Gandalf:

Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again.

...and intrigued by these contrasts of knowing and unknowing, remembering and forgetting, seeing and unseeing:

I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten. I can see many things far off, but many things that are close at hand I cannot see.

I find this deeply intriguing:

It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir’s sake.

I was also struck by how much Saruman DIDN'T know-- where were his powers of Osanwe? Has he lost them, being dependant on the palantir? How can he NOT see so much nowadays?

He has no woodcraft. He believes that the horsemen slew and burned all upon the field of battle; but he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not. And he does not know of the quarrel between his servants and the Orcs of Mordor; nor does he know of the Winged Messenger.’

Gandalf's discourse on dangerous friends is so enjoyable. "You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gloin..."

"the path that seemed right" -- This was extremely encouraging:

‘Do not regret your choice in the valley of the Emyn Muil, nor call it a vain pursuit. You chose amid doubts the path that seemed right: the choice was just, and it has been rewarded. For so we have met in time, who otherwise might have met too late.

And this, also encouraging:

"Go where you must go, and hope!"

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mark 12_30

I was also struck by how much Saruman DIDN'T know-- where were his powers of Osanwe? Has he lost them, being dependant on the palantir? How can he NOT see so much nowadays?

I had to pick up on this point, didn't I? I was jesting last night about my seeming obsession with osanwe...

I've thought about this myself, about how Saruman did not know that the Orcs had been waylaid. If osanwe is a gift given to all sentient beings then surely the orcs would have possessed this skill themselves? It should be the case that the orcs' minds were opened in order for Saruman to communicate, but the thought has passed through my mind that maybe they needed to close up their minds, to exercise unwill. Saruman's aims were covert and he needed to keep the mission secret from Sauron, so maybe his orcs by neccesity had to exercise unwill.

Of course, his excessive use of the palantir could quite easily have clouded his own mind, as it certainly clouded his judgement.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Of course, his excessive use of the palantir could quite easily have clouded his own mind, as it certainly clouded his judgement.

It does make me wonder whether the regular use of 'magical' technology could cause one's innate abilities to atrophy. Perhaps this applies across the board - maybe constant use of a 'magical' sword would lead to the user to lose some of their skill with normal blades, as such skills would be less necessary if the sword carried extra power in & of itself. Is Tolkien making a subtle point about how dangerous our dependence on technology is? We know that our ancestors had greater powers of memory than we do, simply because they had to remember more, not having such easy access to sources of information.

Just speculating.....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

It does make me wonder whether the regular use of 'magical' technology could cause one's innate abilities to atrophy. Perhaps this applies across the board - maybe constant use of a 'magical' sword would lead to the user to lose some of their skill with normal blades, as such skills would be less necessary if the sword carried extra power in & of itself.

I think that in the case of the palantiri for example, when they were used for good intent then they can only have enhanced the user's abilities, but it is entirely possible that excessive use would damage innate abilities. This seems to be what has indeed happened with Saruman, he sought further knowledge and eventually was 'caught'. Though I'm not so sure his innate abilities disappeared entirely. As seen in the Voice of Saruman chapter, he was still dangerous. It might also have been in the interests of Sauron not to have Saruman lose his mind entirely.

About swords - they often seem to possess some kind of 'magical' quality both in Tolkien's works and in other literature. Swords are usually invested with names and a great heritage; even their maker is usually remembered. Yet I wonder whether these swords really do all have magical qualities. A sword is a more complex weapon that it at first might appear, and they were often crafted with their user in mind, as length of blade and weight of hilt needed to be 'tailored' for most effective use. So perhaps Tolkien is echoing this sense that a sword would indeed be 'special' to its bearer. To lose such a personally tailored weapon would mean having to use something not suited to the bearer, and thus it would be less effective. And of course, to have no sword at all would make a person highly vulnerable, so it would be invested with yet more meaning and significance.