Gandalf: the Unilateral Coalition Builder

[lindil]

Listening to my kids read the Hobbit outloud the other day I was struck by Gandalf's propensity by the time of the Hobbit, to trick, cajole, manipulate and otherwise sneakily get non-allies and former allies working together again.

1- Thorin forced to take Bilbo, esp. see UT's the quest for erebor
2- Bilbo likewise.
3- Elrond forced to accomadate dwarves seemingly for the first time in a long time. The leaders of Durin's house seemingly had no clue where Rivendell was and [no longer?] had access to it as a re-supply point between the Forsaken Inn and whomever in the Wilderland. Despite the 'anscestral road' going right over the ford nearby.
4-Beorn perhaps the most classic and blatant manipulation. G was so pleased w/ himself he even explains it to thorin and co.
5-Sending Thorin and co, straight down a trail that must pass through Thranduil's realm w/ out even a letter of introduction or a word of advice.

By the time Bilbo has grown depressed w/ the seige of Erebor by Men and Elves [w/ G looking on!] he takes a page right out of G's book and uses the Arkenstone for crass manipulation.

A final episode of G's was supposed to be the fellowship busting in on hitherto isolated Lothlorien. Galadriel was undoubtedly supportive but the rank and file was, if Haldir's reaction is any indicator, habitually suspicious.

I have mainly looked at 'The Hobbit'. But trend continues unabated in Rohan,and Minas Tirith's seige.

I have some theories but would love to hear from others first...

[Eruanna]

Gandalf's ability, "to trick, cajole, manipulate and otherwise sneakily get non-allies and former allies working together again."

When I first read this lindil I thought, 'but that's Gandalf's purpose'. However,it is only after the events in 'The Hobbit' that we learn about the existence of the elven rings and Narya's enhancing effect on Gandalf's powers of persuasion.
As I am reading 'The Hobbit' with a class of eleven to twelve year olds I am going to ask them what they think of Gandalf's manipulations. He certainly does seem to resort to trickery and 'forceful' suggestion (I hesitate to use the word bully) in order to get people to do as he wants.
I do think, however, that he has changed considerably by the time of The Lord of the Rings. It is a much gentler Gandalf that we see in Rohan, with Theoden. Here he offers advice: "Counsel I could give, and words I could speak to you. Will you hear them?"
But doesn't seem manipulative...of course, Theoden has just lost his son, Gandalf himself has returned from the dead, maybe that accounts for his change in attitude.
An interesting topic, Lindil. I'd be fascinated to hear what others think.

[davem]

Maybe one could argue that Bilbo has 'spun' Gandalf's role in TH to make him seem responsible for a respectable Hobbit going off into the wild & having adventures I do think that the Gandalf of TH is different to the Gandalf of LotR (or of The Sil for that matter). Perhaps this is due to Tolkien's changing of the character as the Legendarium developed. Certainly, in TH Gandalf is more of a typical 'wizard', & often a deus ex machina. I think a comparison between the way he's played in the BBC radio adaptations of The Hobbit & LotR & the movies shows up the difference clearly. The way Heron Carvic plays him in The Hobbit captures the Gandalf of the book perfectly, sharp, mercurial, affectionate but exasperated, in love with his own cleverness. This Gandalf would not have worked in LotR but is right for TH.

Wish I could find a clip of Carvic's Gandalf to make the point clearer, but I think, in answer to your question, Gandalf does manipulate others - he is a 'steward' & has responsibilities, & perhaps sometimes takes 'short cuts', but then he is out to try & save the world, often having to get aid from those who are too caught up in themselves. His heart is in the right place, but I wonder whether his horrified response on being offered the Ring by Frodo might have had something to do with a realisation of this tendency in himself?

[Boromir88]

I did an interesting thread on Gandalf's manipulating ways here.

Some fine posts have been made already. Perhaps we can expand this to a discussion between Gandalf and Saruman in LOTR? How Gandalf uses his persuasion for good purposes. And he does it because it's the right thing to do, not to gain anymore power in which is the big reason Saruman manipulates.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Some fine posts have been made already. Perhaps we can expand this to a discussion between Gandalf and Saruman in LOTR? How Gandalf uses his persuasion for good purposes. And he does it because it's the right thing to do, not to gain anymore power in which is the big reason Saruman manipulates.

Interesting idea. Its almost as if the Istari had a tendency to take control - perhaps their sense of having a 'mission' from their superiors affected them more deeply & gave them a greater sense of driving urgency than we generally think? Maybe Saruman felt more driven than Gandalf & so succumbed to the lure of the Ring. He must have been caught first by the idea that the Ring could enable him to defeat Sauron & thereby achieve his mission. Gandalf, on the other hand, was aware of where this would eventually lead, & so, while his sense of mission may have lead him to 'push' other's in the direction he needed them to go, he would never force them against their will. However much he may 'manipulate' Thorin, Bilbo, Elrond, Beorn, etc, they all retained the freedom to reject him & carry on as they were.

I wonder if the reason they went along with him was that deepdsown they had the sense that while he might be so 'pushing' them, they were being pushed in the right direction? Gandalf was felt to be simply helping them along the way they should have been going anyway. Saruman, & Sauron, were attempting to force people down the wrong road, & deep down their victims knew it.

So, I think that Gandalf was doing what he had been sent to do - which was not simply to wait around till someone could be bothered to do something against Sauron & them offer to 'hold their coat', but actually to 'inspire', to 'push' the inhabitants of Middle earth to do the right thing.

Of course, the question is widened when we bring in the other wizards - the Blue Wizards may have gone east to inspire the people there, but why did Radaghast not feel so driven - or maybe he was 'manipulating' the birds

[Eruanna]

Thanks for the link to the other thread Boromir, an interesting discussion.

Originally posted by Davem:
Its almost as if the Istari had a tendency to take control - perhaps their sense of having a 'mission' from their superiors affected them more deeply & gave them a greater sense of driving urgency than we generally think?

I think you're spot on here. The Istari are powerful beings, but their mission is to guide and help others, not to control them. They are not allowed to reveal themselves or their powers to their full extent (almost like having one hand tied behind their backs) It must have been very frustrating!
However, Gandalf uses his powers to 'nudge' people in the right direction. He 'multi-tasks' throughout the tale, not only orchestrating Sauron's demise but helping all of the 'good' people to achieve their destinies. Although he occasionally gets exasperated with his companions he does not seek to force them to follow his advice. As a consequence he is much loved and respected as one of the wise.
Saruman, on the other hand does not use his power to advise or help, but uses it to dominate others. He is ruthless in achieving his own desires, in direct conflict with 'the mission'.