The week race of man - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aragorn_Protector · 12-24-2002, 03:28 PM

Men are week. That is a fact. However how are they compared to other races, wich lines of men are strongest, lets expand upon tthis.

Galorme · 12-24-2002, 04:15 PM

Númenorions. Simple answer, comparing any other races to them is like comparing coal to diamond.

Aule · 12-24-2002, 05:48 PM

Numenorians are quite obviously the strongest, but the other lines of men weren't just weaklings. For example Rohan, weren't they a far off descendent of the 3 houses of the fathers of men. said something about it in UT or Silm. Said something about how when the numenorians first returned to ME they came across a race of men with golden hair and they felt some kind of bond as if they were once related long ago. obviously not the qoute but i don't have it to hand.
Weren't the Haradrim meant to be mighty fighters as well

-Imrahil- · 12-24-2002, 10:44 PM

Yes the Haradrim were good fighters. But they weren't really a "strong" race. I got the feeling they were quite barbaric. Numenoreans lived longest and were wise.

Arwen_Evenstar · 12-24-2002, 11:13 PM

Men arent week, they're weak! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Arwen Imladris · 12-25-2002, 11:25 AM

Maybe they were weak for a week?

Or maybe they haven't been weak for a week?

Or maybe....

O.K. I'll shut up now.

Galorme · 12-25-2002, 11:47 AM

For a week the men who had been weak for a week were weaker than they were a weak ago, for last week they were not weak.

The books seem quite unclear on this matter. The books say that the Haradrim and other men of Sauron's forces are powerful and good fighters. However, in practise, a small number of men (I hesitate to saw White, but of western origin) can wipe a relatively large number of the none-Numinorion race. So the implication is that the Haradrim etc is good fighters (perhaps compared to Orcs) but compared to the men of westenesse they pale.

Maybe this is a topic for the Is Tolkein Racist discussion.

Marsyas · 12-25-2002, 09:55 PM

while the race of men is weak in comparison with other races, are they not strong in their own respect? They cannot be all bad or they would have fallen to Sauron long ago. Why not compare men to those who gave in to Sauron, like Sarumon? There are men who show that they do have a strength. For Example - Aragorn when he allows Frodo to leave and doesn't pursue him, or Faromir in the book when he lets Frodo and Sam go. If you are going to bash on the race of men at least be fair and point out the good things too.

*~Marsyas~*

**lindil** · 12-26-2002, 05:34 AM

I supose this is one of many ways in which the movies have polluted the understanding of M-E.
Nowhere in my reading of M-E do I ever come away with the idea uttered by 'Galadriel' and Agent Elrond 'Men are weak'.

While it may have been mentioned in the writings of JRRT, I do not think it ever had the same flavor or emphasis as in the movies.

Yes in many ways they were weak compared to Elves, but it was the Numenoreans who throughout the Second Age were the masters of the mortal Lands, saved the 'mighty' Elves of Lindon and Eriador.

So clearly the Numenoreans and their descendants are depicted as being the closest in nature to the Elves, and thus superior to other Men, but as pointed out above, the Rohirrim have by the 4th age become more like the average Gondorian, and the average Gondorian had become more like the Rohirrim.

The rohirrim were however an exceptionally noble and wise people even for descendants of the Elf-Friends of the Three Houses. For so also were the Dunlendings [according to some obscure note of HoME or UT] and possibly those mighty men of Bree.

In the Silm and later HomE[11-12] Men are shown to be the physical equal to Elves in many respects such as Turin when he lives and fights among the Doriathrim, only Beleg [ not even mablung!] was his better in the Marches.

Also the Elves of Beleriand were amazed at Men that they would spend their lives so freely to fight Morgoth alongside the Elves, when they knew they had such short lives here. For the Elves it was seemingly a smaller matter to devote a millenia or so to fighting Morgoth. So that seems to be more a sign of strength.

again in the Fellowship [the Book!], Boromir and Aragorn as having far greater 'strength' [physically] than Legolas [ who can however run on the snow instead].

Now where the Elves excell far beyond all but the lords of Men such as Denethor and Aragorn is in their command over their hroa [body]by their fea [spirit].In this JRRT says in Osanwe-Kenta that the Elves were much more gifted than mankind.

But physically and morally a Man [especially a Dunadan or Numenorean] could atttain similar levels of 'being' if you will.

Welcome to the board Aragorn_Protector.
btw: you can fix your thread title if you wish by hitting the edit icon and rewriting your topic line.

[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

12-24-2002, 03:28 PM	#1
Aragorn_Protector Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: LOTR book Posts: 25	The week race of man Men are week. That is a fact. However how are they compared to other races, wich lines of men are strongest, lets expand upon tthis. __________________ When you see elves shield-boarding down stairs at Helms deep you know PJ needs a catscan

12-24-2002, 04:15 PM	#2
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Númenorions. Simple answer, comparing any other races to them is like comparing coal to diamond. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

12-24-2002, 05:48 PM	#3
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	Numenorians are quite obviously the strongest, but the other lines of men weren't just weaklings. For example Rohan, weren't they a far off descendent of the 3 houses of the fathers of men. said something about it in UT or Silm. Said something about how when the numenorians first returned to ME they came across a race of men with golden hair and they felt some kind of bond as if they were once related long ago. obviously not the qoute but i don't have it to hand. Weren't the Haradrim meant to be mighty fighters as well __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall

12-24-2002, 10:44 PM	#4
-Imrahil- Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dol Amroth, upon the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 259	Yes the Haradrim were good fighters. But they weren't really a "strong" race. I got the feeling they were quite barbaric. Numenoreans lived longest and were wise. __________________ My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-24-2002, 11:13 PM	#5
Arwen_Evenstar Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 206	Men arent week, they're weak! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ 'I am Agarwaen, Son of Úmarth...'-Túrin Turambar. Arwen_Evenstar

12-25-2002, 11:25 AM	#6
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Maybe they were weak for a week? Or maybe they haven't been weak for a week? Or maybe.... O.K. I'll shut up now. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

12-25-2002, 11:47 AM	#7
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	For a week the men who had been weak for a week were weaker than they were a weak ago, for last week they were not weak. The books seem quite unclear on this matter. The books say that the Haradrim and other men of Sauron's forces are powerful and good fighters. However, in practise, a small number of men (I hesitate to saw White, but of western origin) can wipe a relatively large number of the none-Numinorion race. So the implication is that the Haradrim etc is good fighters (perhaps compared to Orcs) but compared to the men of westenesse they pale. Maybe this is a topic for the Is Tolkein Racist discussion. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

12-25-2002, 09:55 PM	#8
Marsyas Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Rohandemar Posts: 38	while the race of men is weak in comparison with other races, are they not strong in their own respect? They cannot be all bad or they would have fallen to Sauron long ago. Why not compare men to those who gave in to Sauron, like Sarumon? There are men who show that they do have a strength. For Example - Aragorn when he allows Frodo to leave and doesn't pursue him, or Faromir in the book when he lets Frodo and Sam go. If you are going to bash on the race of men at least be fair and point out the good things too. ~Marsyas~ __________________ ~Marsyas~ ~Niere~ Some find strength in numbers, I find strength in solitude.

12-26-2002, 05:34 AM	#9
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I supose this is one of many ways in which the movies have polluted the understanding of M-E. Nowhere in my reading of M-E do I ever come away with the idea uttered by 'Galadriel' and Agent Elrond 'Men are weak'. While it may have been mentioned in the writings of JRRT, I do not think it ever had the same flavor or emphasis as in the movies. Yes in many ways they were weak compared to Elves, but it was the Numenoreans who throughout the Second Age were the masters of the mortal Lands, saved the 'mighty' Elves of Lindon and Eriador. So clearly the Numenoreans and their descendants are depicted as being the closest in nature to the Elves, and thus superior to other Men, but as pointed out above, the Rohirrim have by the 4th age become more like the average Gondorian, and the average Gondorian had become more like the Rohirrim. The rohirrim were however an exceptionally noble and wise people even for descendants of the Elf-Friends of the Three Houses. For so also were the Dunlendings [according to some obscure note of HoME or UT] and possibly those mighty men of Bree. In the Silm and later HomE[11-12] Men are shown to be the physical equal to Elves in many respects such as Turin when he lives and fights among the Doriathrim, only Beleg [ not even mablung!] was his better in the Marches. Also the Elves of Beleriand were amazed at Men that they would spend their lives so freely to fight Morgoth alongside the Elves, when they knew they had such short lives here. For the Elves it was seemingly a smaller matter to devote a millenia or so to fighting Morgoth. So that seems to be more a sign of strength. again in the Fellowship [the Book!], Boromir and Aragorn as having far greater 'strength' [physically] than Legolas [ who can however run on the snow instead]. Now where the Elves excell far beyond all but the lords of Men such as Denethor and Aragorn is in their command over their hroa [body]by their fea [spirit].In this JRRT says in Osanwe-Kenta that the Elves were much more gifted than mankind. But physically and morally a Man [especially a Dunadan or Numenorean] could atttain similar levels of 'being' if you will. Welcome to the board Aragorn_Protector. btw: you can fix your thread title if you wish by hitting the edit icon and rewriting your topic line. [ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.