Sauron with the Seven (three recovered) & the Nine

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Some posters on here believe that the Nine rings were no longer held by the Nazgul but by Sauron himself, and I agree with that. Likewise for the three/seven rings of the Dwarves he recovered. So can we speculate that the reason he held these lesser rings himself was to hasten his regeneration into the physical world? For the Seven and the Nine, as all Rings of Power, were said to enhance the natural powers of their wearers. Would it not then be logical for him to use these lesser rings in his crippled state? Sure it took a thousand years to make a comeback, but I think it would've taken Sauron far longer had he not possessed the Nine rings and the Three/Seven. What do y'all think?

Miscellaneous side-question: And what powers did Saruman's home-made ring confer upon him? Was it in the breeding of Uruk-hai, his irresistable voice, or was his ring-making an ineffective endeavour on his part? And if it was ineffective, would this explain why he was so easily expelled by Gandalf, staff broken and all(for he possibly invested alot of his native strength in the manner of Sauron's forging of the One)?

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

So can we speculate that the reason he held these lesser rings himself was to hasten his regeneration into the physical world?

It would also be helpful not to have the rings be lost whenever the Nazgul happened to be defeated in battle and their current material bodies destroyed, for example when they were drowned up near Rivendell. I always wondered why the elves didn't just recover the bodies and cut the rings off their fingers. Sauron's holding of the rings himself would explain it.

Of course, Sauron didn't have physical form yet either, so I suppose his minions in Mordor must have kept them for him in a safe place. It would be interesting to explore the ruins after Sauron was defeated, and look for them.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

I always wondered why the elves didn't just recover the bodies and cut the rings off their fingers.

There were no bodies. When Éowyn slew the Witch-King, only an empty mantle and hauberk were left on the ground. No corpse, no fingers to cut a Ring off.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

There were no bodies.

Well, search the clothing then. The rings should have remained at any rate, if they had been wearing them.

[Formendacil]

Without thinking long on the matter, it seems to me rather strange to suggest that Sauro would have retained for himself Rings that expressed turned one into a Wraith if his purpose were re-embodiment. Stretching his life into longevity would hardly be necessary when, as a Maia, he'd already cheated death and the destruction of his body.

No, it seems to me that Sauron wanted the 3 of Seven, and the Nine for reasons other than re-incorporating, a process which, in any case, I think only the One would have helped him with--not because it was a Ring, but because it was a Ring into which he had imbued so much of his power. It seems to me more that he wanted the Seven and the Nine for other reasons. Whatever other powers they might have, I'm not sure I'd want to speculate, but it might not have been for their powers at all, but simply so that, once he had the One again--or in case he did not recover it--he would not have other people running around with powerful Rings. In other words, not in order to use them, but to prevent other from using them.

Hmm... now I'm wondering... let's imagine that Gandalf or Saruman had the One Ring and was set on becoming the new Ringlord: would Sauron's possession of the Seven and Nine have been a defence against the Ringlord, or would they have weakened him against the Ringlord--as the Seven and Nine were meant to bend others to his will when he had the One?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Whatever other powers they might have, I'm not sure I'd want to speculate, but it might not have been for their powers at all, but simply so that, once he had the One again--or in case he did not recover it--he would not have other people running around with powerful Rings.

If he regained the One, why wouldn't he have wanted other people have the rest of the Rings? It was made to rule them all, wasn't it?

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Without thinking long on the matter, it seems to me rather strange to suggest that Sauro would have retained for himself Rings that expressed turned one into a Wraith if his purpose were re-embodiment. Stretching his life into longevity would hardly be necessary when, as a Maia, he'd already cheated death and the destruction of his body.

But why would you expect Sauron, a maia, to turn into a wraith when the rings of power have different effects on specific races (e.g. dwarves not having the same reaction as men)? I did not argue for the Nine & the Seven's life-lengthening qualities, but for their virtue to enhance a bearer's natural powers, which was something Sauron greatly needed (after his severe reduction sans the One). And was this not his lore to begin with? I highly doubt he would become a thrall by his own creation (save maybe the One). Re-embodiment takes power and time. If his weakened state can gain some enhancement from the stolen three of the Seven and Nine, I don't see anything strange about that.

I'm not sure I'd want to speculate, but it might not have been for their powers at all, but simply so that, once he had the One again--or in case he did not recover it--he would not have other people running around with powerful Rings. In other words, not in order to use them, but to prevent other from using them.

But those rings were tainted. They were evil and worked towards evil even if Sauron does not wear the One. The Nine & Seven were not unsullied like the Three, for Sauron participated in their creation. Would it not be more profitable if the opposite were to occur: To have the Seven & the Nine rings scattered (regardless if the One is not recovered) and wreak havoc on their own?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But why would you expect Sauron, a maia, to turn into a wraith when the rings of power have different effects on specific races (e.g. dwarves not having the same reaction as men)? I did not argue for the Nine & the Seven's life-lengthening qualities, but for their virtue to enhance a bearer's natural powers, which was something Sauron greatly needed (after his severe reduction sans the One). And was this not his lore to begin with? I highly doubt he would become a thrall by his own creation (save maybe the One). Re-embodiment takes power and time. If his weakened state can gain some enhancement from the stolen three of the Seven and Nine, I don't see anything strange about that.

Do the Seven and the Nine enhance the wearer's powers? I'm not at all clear that they do. Each of the Nazgûl were powerful in their own right before they got hold of a Ring.

In any case, I was not saying that Sauron would have become a wraith if he'd used the Seven and Nine. Obviously not, since the One had no such effect. My question was whether they'd be of any use to Sauron in terms of regenerating, since wraithifying was the intended effect of the Seven and Nine on Men--more so, I dare say, than giving them power: power was merely to be a lure for enslaving the wearer to Sauron's will.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But those rings were tainted. They were evil and worked towards evil even if Sauron does not wear the One. The Nine & Seven were not unsullied like the Three, for Sauron participated in their creation. Would it not be more profitable if the opposite were to occur: To have the Seven & the Nine rings scattered (regardless if the One is not recovered) and wreak havoc on their own?

If the Seven and the Nine merely weaken people to be dominated by evil, then yes. In such a case, however, then Sauron would not have wanted to recover them at all, and certainly not to help him regenerate. If, however, the Rings have a power about them do something "positive" (by which I certainly do not mean "good"), then they could be used as a force against him.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Well, search the clothing then. The rings should have remained at any rate, if they had been wearing them.

It's nowhere in the canon, but I've alawys imagined that by the third age the Wrath and his ring were in all respects the same thing, that, if you could destroy a wraiths ring you would instatly destroy the wraith much as with the one ring. I als think this might have worked the other way in the case of a wraith, if you destroyed the wraith permanently his ring is destroyed as well. I have an image in my mind of Sauron at the Moment Eowyn slew the WK looking down at his hand the the WK's ring cracking and falling to pieces.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

It's nowhere in the canon, but I've alawys imagined that by the third age the Wrath and his ring were in all respects the same thing, that, if you could destroy a wraiths ring you would instatly destroy the wraith much as with the one ring. I als think this might have worked the other way in the case of a wraith, if you destroyed the wraith permanently his ring is destroyed as well. I have an image in my mind of Sauron at the Moment Eowyn slew the WK looking down at his hand the the WK's ring cracking and falling to pieces.

I'd say the Ringwraiths indeed would die if the Nine that enslaved them were destroyed. After all, it was the power of those rings, and their link to the One, that kept the wraiths walking the earth long after they should have died. But the rings themselves would not have been so tied to their 'masters'. They were under the power of Sauron and the One, and would have endured as long as he and it did.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"Of course, Sauron didn't have physical form yet either,"


Nonsense! That's creeping movie-ism. Sauron was corporeal at the end of the Third Age.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Sauron was corporeal at the end of the Third Age.

Tolkien seemed to think he did have form, at least partially developed, but whether it was yet fully formed, or just how "corporeal" it was, we can't know.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I wandered over here because something occured to me yesterday while posting in another topic: Sauron probably wanted the seven rings of the Dwarves back because they hadn't had the effect he wanted, but might it not be possible that he took back the Nine because he realized -- especially after he himself lost the One -- that Rings of Power were a double-edged sword in a way he hadn't anticipated? It was said that if Sauron regained the One, then the minds and works of those who held the Three would be laid bare to him. He knew that this would happen, as it was an effect of his original wielding of the One. But once he lost his own Ring, would he not fear that those still in possession of their Rings might turn the tables, and sooner or later, his mind and works would be laid bare to them? The Witch King, as near as I can tell, while a king of Men before he took his ring, did not become a sorcerer until after Sauron gave him one of the Nine and taught him black arts. The WK became powerful enough to be a fearsome enemy of the Free Peoples in his own right, which was no doubt just fine with Sauron while he still held the Master Ring. Once that was gone... I can just hear the little wheels of paranoia spinning in his mind, worrying that what he had given away and taught might now be a threat to him, that not only would those blasted Elves start working their way into his private thoughts, but even his own mightiest servant might one day realize that he had something he could hold over Sauron, that he might learn secrets that could be used against his master. As the traitor is always afraid of being betrayed, the paranoid always project their own imagined motives and fears onto others. Sauron thus wouldn't necessarily want the lesser Rings back to use himself; he would want them back so that he could be danged certain that those enslaved to their existence could not make any use of them of which he was unaware. That, and he might want them back after they'd made wraiths of their owners so that he could hand them out to the next batch of willing victims and thus conquer them.

Did that make any sense? I hope so, but it's Monday, and the brain is in less than optimal performance mode.

[Erchamion]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Tolkien seemed to think he did have form, at least partially developed, but whether it was yet fully formed, or just how "corporeal" it was, we can't know.

Well, there's nothing in LOTR to suggest it wasn't 100% corporeal. Gollum saw 4 fingers on his hand, Aragorn seemed to think that Sauron's form was solid enough to fight - "Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth, justice will be done upon him", Denethor & Galadriel talk about him arriving personally to defeat them if his armies are victorious.

The 'Eye' is just a manifestation of his will and has nothing to do with his physical body.