Prophetic Elves?

[Elvish Archer]

Now, I know that elves are at least telepathic because Galadriel communicated with the Fellowship in a manner that would suggest they have that ability. However, in the TTT EE, Galadriel is communicating to Elrond like this and she says, "The quest will claim his life. You have foreseen it." Those who have read the books know that Frodo later takes a ship to the West, so it does claim his life after a fashion. My question is, do Elves possess the power of prophecy and are all telepathic. (Or are Galadriel and Elrond special?)<p>[ 4:56 PM December 01, 2003: Message edited by: Elvish Archer ]

[Ainaserkewen]

That's a very good question actually. I'd say kinda sorta, if you know what I mean. The "telepathic" conversation between Elrond and Galadriel was a movie thing, I think. Like it could be a previous conversation or something. Plus, the elves can prophesize things, but not with magical powers (minus Galadriel's mirror) I think Elrond fortells things by weighing the facts and making an educated guess. He comes up with the wisest Idea. Elves have less magic than most people think...it's just because they're so smart and good at everything that they appear magical. I could be wrong about the telepathy thing though...that's just how I look at it.

[Mooncalf]

Expanding on Aina's idea about elves making educated guesses... I suppose that, after living for hundreds of years, you begin to see patterns emerge and realize that everything repeats itself... so your predictions about the future would be more accurate.<P>Just a thought...

[Arathiriel]

As for the Quest claiming Frodo's life...well I always thought Galadriel meant not that it would take his physical life, but his spiritual life if you will. Remember Frodo's spirit is all but destroyed by the burden the Ring was and by his shame of failing to destroy It once he had reached the Cracks of Doom...

[Ainaserkewen]

Exactly Mooncalf, just what I meant. I still think that Galadriel meant that the quest would probably kill Frodo, and there was such a chance that he would be killed. But elves prophecies are not always right, and in this case, they were. Sorry if I ruined it for anyone.

[yavanna II]

maybe galadriel & elrond were just special, maybe coz the've Rings

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Well, we know they could communicate without words from the book because that's what they did on the way home. As for prophecy, I don't know. I agree, I think it's just educated guessing. And they do have thousands of years of experience!!! I have noticed the odd omen in the text, although I can't remember where...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Glorfindel made a prophecy which, if it was merely a guess, then it was an amazingly good guess. I think what we have here is that powerful Elves have extra special abilities. And Elrond and Galadriel were indeed powerful Elves.

[Kalimac]

In the book, Elrond and Galadriel do silently communicate, so you could call that a basic telepathy - maybe not the sort that can be turned on and off at will, or where the communicators know *exactly* what's being said in words (a general feeling might be more like it) but telepathy nonetheless. So I can buy the scenes where Elrond and Galadriel are "thinking" to each other; they're in a very high-stress, emotional situation and might be able to communicate in ways not ordinarily open to them. And of course, there's the Elven-ring factor. <P>Similarly with prophecy; as the Sibyl at Cumae showed, prophecies can be true and yet very unclear until they're fulfilled. I can believe that Galadriel and Elrond would have single revelations on the lines of "He is not coming back" or "The quest will claim his life" but that doesn't mean they necessarily saw all the circumstances surrounding these facts. They just saw one point of the future briefly uncovered, and nothing of what led up to it. They may not have known themselves whether "He is not coming back" meant that Aragorn would die in battle or be crowned King or whichever. All Elrond would know is that he could not sense that Aragorn would ever return to Rivendell. All of these things are like glimpses, not like methodical prediction, so while Tolkien didn't go this far in the books it seems a reasonable extension. <P>The part in the movies that bothers me is where Galadriel says something along the lines of "The young captain of Gondor has only stretch out his hand to claim the Ring" or something along those lines; anyway, it implies that not only is she sensing Frodo's ultimate fate (possible) but moreover that she knows pretty closely where he is and whom he's with. This seems too ... specific. It's like she has a palantir squirrelled away somewhere. And it seems strange, from a movie-perspective, that Galadriel and Elrond would be able to keep such close track of Frodo and yet be able to do nothing to help him. Granted, there's little they could do at this point, but the idea that they're somehow watching all the action at a safe distance, a la Vietnam, just feels wrong.<p>[ 1:19 AM December 06, 2003: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I think the elves can see the future for I have read in some companion book something that was either cut out or it will be in the ROTK. Arwen: You have the power of foresight, tell me what you have seen. Elrond: I see your future, it is death. I really don't know if this will be in the movie or not but it was in one of the companion books. I think it was supposed to be in TTT but they could have moved some stuff around that fit in both movies for I have seen some of the same scenes in both TTT and the ROTK previews. Besides Elrond explaining the future to Arwen if she marries Aragorn seems pretty prophetic to me. Yes I know that it might be common knowledge for elves to know this but I will keep my beliefs regardless.

[Lord of Angmar]

I believe that not all Elves are 'prophetic' in the sense that we would use the word. The more powerful Elves, such as the Noldor Elf-lords who remained in Middle Earth around the time of the War of the Ring, did seem to have the ability to prophecize or foresee future events, but I see no evidence for the race as a whole being able to accurately view and interpret the future. I think, rather, that future events weigh on the minds of the Elves, much like past events weigh on our minds, even if we are not consciously thinking about those events. <P>Elrond and Galadriel do communicate telepathically in the movie, and Galadriel communicates with Frodo. This is known as the <I>osanwe</I> of the Elves, I believe.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Though I'm not overly enthused about Galadriel's "young captain of Gondor" lines, there is a possible explanation - her mirror might have shown her what was happening. However, the nature of the mirror being as it is, it's not certain that what is shown is actually happening in the present or will certainly happen in the future. Therefore, she would not intervene even if she were able to.

[Essex]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"He is not coming back" or "The quest will claim his life"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let’s remember this is the MOVIE version of the books. The above lines are Jackson’s way of making the non book readers believe that Aragorn and Frodo will die. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"The young captain of Gondor has only stretch out his hand to claim the Ring"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A movie style way of linking the strands of the film together. Galadriel had to ‘talk’ Elrond into sending his troops from rivendell to helm’s deep, so she had a bit of a moan at him, and then he got his own back by nicking Haldir off of her!!<P>It’s not just the Elves that have prophesies in the books. Indeed, here are 2 examples of the Hobbits, albeit without realizing, prophesizing in a roundabout way: <P>Sam first in Rivendell:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>'Oh, that won't do!' said Bilbo. `Books ought to have good endings. How would this do: and they all settled down and lived together happily ever after?'<BR> `It will do well, if it ever comes to that,' said Frodo.<BR> 'Ah!' said Sam. <B>'And where will they live? That's what I often wonder.'</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And Frodo early on with Gollum regarding the Ring:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You will never get it back. But the desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. You will never get it back. In the last need, Sméagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice <B>or to cast yourself into the fire. </B> And such would be my command. So have a care, Sméagol!'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Bêthberry]

My dear Essex,<P>Perhaps you should investigate the difference between such words as foreshadow and prophesy:<P><A HREF="http://www.m-w.com/" TARGET=_blank>online dictionary</A><P>B

[Essex]

My dear Bethberry,<P>I have my own hard copy of Webster's dictionary so I don't need an online copy, but thank you anyway.<P>Foreshadow - an indication of what is to come.<P>Prophetic - tending to indicate what is going to happen<P>Seems the same to me. The two hobbits do not realise their own propheticality.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

The gift of foresight was given to the Elves (presumably by Eru), and then to some degree to the Dunedain. Aragorn had at least two accurate foresights:<P>He told Elrond that the hour of choice laid before the children of Elrond was at hand (Appendix A).<P>He told Eomer that they would meet again in battle, "though all the hosts of Mordor lie between."<P>And, of course, there is Faramir's curse, or doom, or foresight, or whatever you want to call it, when he condemned Gollum to death if Gollum ever betrayed his master. And we all know what eventually happened.<P>So the gift of foresight (or prophecy) was definitely not limited to the Elves, and, as Essex has pointed out, even hobbits could make accurate predictions (though I'm not sure I would classify them as "foresights").

[Bêthberry]

Essex and All here,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Foreshadow - an indication of what is to come.<P>Prophetic - tending to indicate what is going to happen<P>Seems the same to me. The two hobbits do not realise their own propheticality.<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The difference, I would humbly submit, lies in how the suspenseful indication is portrayed and by whom.<P>"Foreshadowing" is something which storytellers do to incite or arouse our anticipation (or participation) in the story, an indication of possible events to come. It is part of how storytellers create suspense so we will wonder how it all turns out.<P>This is, I think, different from a character deliberately making prognostications about events, where the character is endowed with special ability to perceive the future (part of character depth?) If the hobbits do not realise their thoughts prefigure events, then they cannot be said to be prophetic, to have the power to perceive the future, [edit:] although it is true as Kalimac says that often prophecies are unclear until events bring them into focus.<P>Thus, I would suggest that the story can foretell events (part of plot), but those places do not provide evidence that the characters are prescient (part of character). <P>In determining if elves or hobbits are prophetic, we need to keep in mind this distinction in the craft of storytelling. <P>Respectfully,<BR>Bêthberry<p>[ 10:44 AM December 09, 2003: Message edited by: Bêthberry ]

[Essex]

Now THAT'S better! I concede, mostly. I'm not totally sure, especially in the case of Frodo. I read this as more prophetic than coincidence which you might imply it is.

[ArathorofBarahir]

Personally I just think that Elrond and Galadriel are because they are two of the wisest and most intelligent, and most powerful Elves in Middle Earth. However this is jsut my opinion.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

:sigh: Lets just call it ESP for everyone can have that, aka minor prophetic moments. Example, you think about calling someone and then the phone rings and on the line is the person you were about to call. There are other examples that have happend to me but I keep forgetting them. If I remember I will share them.

[Bêthberry]

Essex, could you provide a reference for your quotations from Frodo so I could read it in context? Thanks.<P>All,<P>Even though this is a movie thread, we should, I think, use language which comes closest to that Tolkien would have referred to. For instance, when he uses 'magic', he means something very specific about how the elves use art to create rather than control. (See Letter 131, to Milton Waldman, for one explanation.) He does not mean that elves defy the normal laws of Middle-earth with hocus pocus.<P>Similarly, Tolkien developed the concept of <BR><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000492" TARGET=_blank>Osanwe-kenta: Enquiry into the communication of Thought</A><P>The concept was also considered in light of the first movie on the thread<BR><A HREF="http://barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001053" TARGET=_blank>Telepathic Communication in Middle-earth</A><P>It might be worthwhile to read those past discussions and then consider what is being presented in RotK. (A search for Osanwe-Kenta in the Books forum produces a list of 25 threads in all.)<p>[ 8:34 PM December 09, 2003: Message edited by: Bêthberry ]