Alternative scenario regarding One Ring's destruction

[SarumanCymraeg]

I was thinking the other day about how some of the Elves believed that when the One Ring was destroyed that the Three would become free of it's influence and their powers would still be (as opposed to fading).

If that had been correct, how do you think that would have shapened things in the next chapter of Middle-Earth? Would the Elves still be there for an indefinite amount of time. I suppose technically if the Three would still hold their powers then so would the Nine (or Eight, seeing as the Witch King was slayed). Maybe the eight remaining Nazgul would become free of the influence of the One completely and they would be the new threat to Middle-earth?

What do you think?

[ninja91]

I do not think that the Nazgul would be much of a threat. They would have almost no allies, and they would already be rivaled in power by the elves, and King Elessar.

[narfforc]

I think the reason that the Elves thought there may be a chance for the Three retaining their power, is because Sauron had nothing to do with their making, he never sullied them, although they could be controlled by the One Ring, the hope of the Elves was that the Three would become free with the the destruction of the One, whereas the Nazgul were totally dependent on the existance of the One Ring, and like all the works that had been done with the power of the One, they were doomed the minute it went into the flames.

[Farael]

I beg to differ, both with Nafforc and Ninja.

To adress Nafforc's point first, the nine rings were made before the One ring, therefore the nine rings are not a product of the one and thus it's not necessary that they'll be destroyed when The One is. The Nine were not even made by Sauron himself, the elves made them. Of course he was involved in the process of making them and ultimately bent the rings to his own purpose, but he did not make them.

What I mean by all that is that it would have been possible for the Nazghul to become liberated from the One. What this would have meant it's hard to know. Perhaps they would have remained evil creatures bent on power and destruction, perhaps their souls would have been allowed to pass from the circles of the world as they should have done a long time before or perhaps they would have remained and turned good, who knows?

About Ninja's points, while it is true they'd have no allies and that elves and strong and brave men could be a match for their skills, we should not forget that the Witch King had fought war against the free peoples of ME almost by himself while Sauron recuperated from the destruction of Numenor. If the Witch King could do it, then it's likely that the other Nazghul were also capable of doing it. Let's not forget that they were all kings in life.

[Boromir88]

As far as the Three Elven Rings, yes they hoped that they would still retain their powers after the destruction of the Ring, but they certainly feared that if Sauron found the Ring, or if the Ring was destroyed the powers of the Three would lose their powers:

Yet many voices were heard among the Elves foreboding that, if Sauron should come again, then either he would find the Ruling Ring that was lost, or at the best his enemies would discover it and destroy itl but in either chance the powers of the Three must then fail and all things maintained by them must fade, and so the Elves should pass into the twilight and the Dominion of Men begin.~Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age

And eventhough Sauron never "sullied" them they were still controlled by the One Ring:

Therefor the three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.~ibid

Before I get to the Nazgul, and I think with the Nazgul it's more up for grabs as to what happens to them. I just wanted to point out, excellent post Farael, with some good ideas, just one thing that I have to point out because it annoys me.

Let's not forget that they were all kings in life.

This is actually a fault caused by the movies, they all weren't "Kings of Men." After they received their Rings:

Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old.~ibid

So after they got the nine they became kings, sorcerers, and warriors. Before, the most we are told were that 3 were Lords of Numenor:

It is said that among those whom he ensnared with the nine rings three were great lords of Numenorean race.~The Akallabeth

So what would happen to them if the One Ring was destroyed? Well it appears to me that Sauron (who at some point in time took back the 9 rings and was in possession of them) could still hold control over the Nazgul, eventhough he did not hold the One Ring:

They would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand… That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack . . . They would have greeted Frodo as ‘Lord’ . . . and induced him to leave Sammath Naur to look upon his new kingdom…~Letter 246

So Sauron could still control the Nazgul eventhough he did not have the One.

When the One was destroyed I had assumed the Ringwraiths were also destroyed. What happens to their spirits afterwards I don't know if it's ever said (perhaps someone else does?) But I've always assumed they were destroyed when the One was.

And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.~Mount Doom

[ArathorofBarahir]

I thought that since the Nazgul had become ensared by Sauron and existed to do his bidding, they were destroyed when Sauron was destroyed. However, I agree with most that the Elves had the hope that the Three would retain their powers, but I don't think the Elves would have stayed in Middle Earth for too much longer. The Fourth Age was the dawn of the Age of Men.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

This is actually a fault caused by the movies, they all weren't "Kings of Men." After they received their Rings:

So after they got the nine they became kings, sorcerers, and warriors. Before, the most we are told were that 3 were Lords of Numenor:

Touche, I won't lie and I must say I had the movies in mind when I wrote that, but the first time I read LoTR I thought they had all been fallen kings (somehow related to the spirits in the Barrow-Downs) While that last assumption has sort of gone away, I still think of them as kings and the movies reinforce my mistake =P

Now, back in topic, what I think that happened was that the power of the nine rings (and Sauron by association and thus The One by association through Sauron... if that makes any sense) was what kept the Nazghul "alive" (or perhaps "undead"). After that power was removed their souls had no longer anything to bind them to Middle Earth. Their bodies were long gone and there was nothing else holding them back, so they were able to go. Also, as they had once been men, their fate was that of men, so they would escape beyond the circles of Arda. What would happen then only Eru knows, but as far as we know, it's not that they could have been rejected from that destiny(unlike Saruman, for example, who is rejected from Valinor)

[narfforc]

Fareal I never said that the Nine were a product of the One, what I was attempting to say was that everything that Sauron did with the One was doomed once it was destroyed, one of the things he did was bind all the power of the rings into the One;

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

The Nine were bound to the One, if the Three lost their power so would the Nine, and the thing that kept the Nazgul in existance was the power of their Rings.

When you say Sauron did'nt make the Rings, are you sure?


In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance (Silm HB p287)


Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One (Silm HB p288)

Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all the rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making (Silm HB p288)

To me this says that Sauron helped in the forging of all the Rings of Power save the Three.