The Westward Road

[Thinlómien]

There's a lot of talk in Elrond's council about taking the Westward Road (=sending the Ring over the Sea).

It is discarded, since it is regarded the one Sauron will surely be watching.

My question, however, is: is there any evidence that Sauron truly watched this way?

From where he even could have? Did he have a secret naval basis? If yes, where did he got the troops there were? Sauron had no fortresses near the Western shores, except Angmar, which was forsken, or at least didn't serve as a fort of a real army.

Further speculation: what if the Ring had been sent westward? What would have happened?

Any thoughts on the Westward Road are welcome on this thread.

[Mithalwen]

Interesting point. I always assumed (quite possibly wrongly)that it meant that they could not hope to get the ring back west to the Grey Havens - though with the Nazgul temporarily disabled, I am not sure that that would be the case.

Certainly if "going West" was a serious option Gandalf deserves to be smacked - it was bad enought that it took him so long to make the connection with the one ring and Bilbo's ring, without sending Frodo on foot all the way to Rivendell when the havens were a few days ride the other way. However it would have been a very short book.

I suppose if a naval assault were made, then Sauron had the fealty of the Corsair of Umbar but I don't know how vulnerable an elven ship on "the straight road", would be how soon it would pass beyond reach of the mortals of Middle Earth.

[Thinlómien]

I suppose if a naval assault were made, then Sauron had the fealty of the Corsair of Umbar but I don't know how vulnerable an elven ship on "the straight road", would be how soon it would pass beyond reach of the mortals of Middle Earth.

Good point, I had forgotten about them. Anyway it'd take ages for the Corsairs. They would never be fast enough to catch the elven ship. The Council couldn't possibly have thought the pirates of Umbar a serious threat since they were so far south. I think there has to be more to it.

[Mithalwen]

Yes, and I am no sailor but I am not sure that their ships - at least of the type that Aragorn captured would have been up to that sort of a journey. Going up the Anduin is one thing but the open sea? Crawling around the coastline would have taken forever and part of the coastline looks ratehr like the notorious Bay of Biscay. Althought I suppose the Black Numenoreans would have had the same seafaring knowledge as the true ones. They would also have had to get past Dol Amroth which seems to have had naval power.

So either the danger was in reaching the sea or Sauron had other resources. I am not sure the council anticipated the winged beasts but even so using them over water seems unlikely (though the thought of them landing on an elf ship as a Harrier does on the Ark Royal is quite funny).

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

So either the danger was in reaching the sea or Sauron had other resources. I am not sure the council anticipated the winged beasts but even so using them over water seems unlikely (though the thought of them landing on an elf ship as a Harrier does on the Ark Royal is quite funny).

Indeed. But if the ship was loaded with elf-lords of high power such as Glorfindel and the ship had Gandalf in it, I wonder if the nazgûl alone would have succeeded to take the ring. They could, of course, sink the ship, but that maybe wouldn't help their cause at all since the Ring'd be down in the bottom of the sea.

Did Sauron have vampires in his service in the Third Age? For if he had, he could have sent a nazgûl - vampire assault and that would have been a match even for a bunch of elf-lords.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Indeed. But if the ship was loaded with elf-lords of high power such as Glorfindel and the ship had Gandalf in it, I wonder if the nazgûl alone would have succeeded to take the ring. They could, of course, sink the ship, but that maybe wouldn't help their cause at all since the Ring'd be down in the bottom of the sea.

Did Sauron have vampires in his service in the Third Age? For if he had, he could have sent a nazgûl - vampire assault and that would have been a match even for a bunch of elf-lords.

Oooh don't forget that Nazgul and Water don't mix!!!! All Glorfindel (who can face down all of them at once more or less) would have to do is light a torch and the Ring wraith would be caught between their least favourite elements. They would have to walk the plank! Wasn't Thuringwethil about it for vampires in ME?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oooh don't forget that Nazgul and Water don't mix!!!! All Glorfindel (who can face down all of them at once more or less) would have to do is light a torch and the Ring wraith would be caught between their least favourite elements.

He should just be careful not to set the sails on fire...

But that is, actually, a good point. If the nazgûl didn't like water (which I totally forgot though I last read that part from LotR only a few weeks ago ), Sauron couldn't have sent them to the Sea. I don't mean that he wasn't capable of forcing them to go there. But I think the result would have been a disaster.

[davem]

'Then if the Ring cannot be kept from him for ever by strength,' said Glorfindel, 'two things only remain for us to attempt: to send it over the Sea, or to destroy it.' 'But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here possess,' said Elrond. 'And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.' (Council of Elrond)

I think it is clear that it cannot be sent over the Sea from Elrond's words given here. It seems plain that the Straight Road was not simply open for all comers - even Elves. They might be permitted to return, but only in certain circumstances - with the Ring would not be one of them.

In other words, its not the case that any Elf (even any High Elf) could just hop into a ship & go back - they would have to be allowed in. Elrond states the Valar would not receive the Ring - it belongs to Middle-earth. This is clearly the point. the only place it can be destroyed is in the fires of Orodruin, the place it was made. Hence, even if it could be taken into the West it could not be destroyed there. If it could not be destroyed Sauron would continue to exist & he had already all but won victory. If the Ring was in the West it would be unassailable, Sauron would be invincible & his victory would be guaranteed permanently. The very worst thing that could be done with it would be to remove it to a place of safety. And of course, there's no reason to believe it would not work on the Elves (& Maiar) in the Blessed Realm & bring disaster there too.

Elrond's words are interesting 'For good or ill..' he says. My reading is that he is saying that it is actually a good thing that the Ring remain in Middle-earth because while there it can be destroyed, & if the worst comes to the worst, only Middle-earth is in danger, & Sauron's malice will be contained in Endor.

Whatever. The Ring cannot be taken into the West as the Valar will not allow it to be. If it was cast into the depths of the Sea it would still exist, & therefore so would Sauron, & hence he would win, because he is far more powerful than his opponents. Sauron des not need the Ring to achieve victory - which is already assured - the only thing that can defeat him is its destruction & the only place it can be destroyed is the place of its forging - in Middle-earth.

[Mithalwen]

Indeed fire on boats is seriously bad news (despite the abundance of available water) - but we have to assume that Sauron's skills as a tactician are superior to that (though there is a theory that military intelligence is an oxymoron - but my pa would kill me for saying that!). Almost feel a bit sorry for the Nazgul - can you imagin hopw bad they would feel if they can't ford a river but get forced to fly miles over the sea.

[Thinlómien]

I agree with you, davem, that I was really no option to send the Ring over the sea, since it wouldn't have worked very well.

However, they discuss it a lot in the Council, which, I think, proves that the Council really considered it an option (maybe with the exception of Elrond and Gandalf).

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I agree with you, davem, that I was really no option to send the Ring over the sea, since it wouldn't have worked very well.

However, they discuss it a lot in the Council, which, I think, proves that the Council really considered it an option (maybe with the exception of Elrond and Gandalf).

Well, they also considered giving it to Tom, an idea which they had to be encouraged to drop quick smart. They were desperate & looking for the easy way out.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Indeed fire on boats is seriously bad news (despite the abundance of available water) - but we have to assume that Sauron's skills as a tactician are superior to that .

And maybe he had so superior tactician's skills to us so that we can't possibly imagine how could he have assaulted the elven ship... :P

Almost feel a bit sorry for the Nazgul - can you imagin hopw bad they would feel if they can't ford a river but get forced to fly miles over the sea

Aww... Feeling sorry for the nazgûl. That must be the strangest feeling I've ever had.

Anyway, in the Council it is said that Sauron will watch the westward road. Did Sauron have some water-monsters as spies? Or fish? Or seabirds? (Eek! Not penguins, right? )

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Anyway, in the Council it is said that Sauron will watch the westward road. Did Sauron have some water-monsters as spies? Or fish? Or seabirds? (Eek! Not penguins, right? )

I think that refers to the road west through M-e, not to the Straight Road.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And maybe he had so superior tactician's skills to us so that we can't possibly imagine how could he have assaulted the elven ship... :P
Aww... Feeling sorry for the nazgûl. That must be the strangest feeling I've ever had.

Anyway, in the Council it is said that Sauron will watch the westward road. Did Sauron have some water-monsters as spies? Or fish? Or seabirds? (Eek! Not penguins, right? )

Don't worry Lommy.

I am sure that the penguins were agents of Ulmo who of all the Valar maintained the the most interest in ME. Crustaceans however were servants of the dark lord

[Rhod the Red]

What positive difference would the casting of the One Ring into the Sea have been? while the power of the Three Rings would have been preserved, so would have Saurons' existance.

If you mean as in to take it to Mordor via the Sea, well, that's covered in the Why Moria? thread.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

If it was cast into the depths of the Sea it would still exist, & therefore so would Sauron, & hence he would win, because he is far more powerful than his opponents. Sauron des not need the Ring to achieve victory - which is already assured - the only thing that can defeat him is its destruction & the only place it can be destroyed is the place of its forging - in Middle-earth.

But the Ring would make not only a Sauron victory more likely,
but also more long lasting, hence it would be an at least short-term
(in years and more) plus to deny it to him.

The enemy is fast becoming very strong...We should be very
hard put to it, even if it were not for this dreadful chance. The Enemy
still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down
all resistance, break the last defenses, and cover all the lands in a
second darkness. He lacks the One Ring.

The Shadow Of The Past

[davem]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

But the Ring would make not only a Sauron victory more likely,
but also more long lasting, hence it would be an at least short-term
(in years and more) plus to deny it to him.

Not sure I see this. There are two problems with merely keeping the One from Sauron - he continues to exist & grow in power & the Ring would work on anyone in its vicinity (in fact on anyone who knew of its existence). Hence, Sauron gets stronger & the desire for the Ring grows on those opposing him - particularly as their position gets more desperate.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Don't worry Lommy.
I am sure that the penguins were agents of Ulmo who of all the Valar maintained the the most interest in ME. Crustaceans however were servants of the dark lord

Hmm.. And I'm so sure leopard seals spied for Sauron!

I think there is some evidence about the road from Rivendell/Shire to Grey Havens baing watched. The wandering nazgûl, the ruffians and half-orcs in Breeland and the crebain. As the crebain and the ruffians were mostly in Saruman's service, I'm intrigued by the possibility that Sauron used Saruman to guard the Westward Road...

[Lalwendë]

It's interesting to think of how that could have been done and what might have happened, but ultimately, there was only one answer.

The Ring really had to be 'unmade' as far as was possible. Some power drawn from Mount Doom was inherent to the Ring, and so it could only really be destroyed there. Yes, there may have been great powers in valinor which could protect the Ring, maybe even destroy it, but this destruction would not have been as 'complete' as a destruction in the place of its making.

In the end, returning the Ring to Mount Doom did not only destroy it and put it forever beyond Sauron's reach, but it also helped to undo much of the bad work he had done, work that was done with the aid of the power (whether real or psychological) from the Ring.

In a way, I'm reminded of an organism which is not meant to endure beyond time, which in the end has to go back to the earth and fire from which it sprang.

Got some mad thoughts now but I can't get them into words as I've just had a pint.

[Rhod the Red]

Taking the Ring West, even as part of the effort to destroy the Ring, even if it was safe to travel to Gondor that way, would only have risked(to use Legolas' phrase) more lives of Gondorians at the Anduin battles, I fear.

[ninja91]

If the ring HAD gone over the sea, the good peoples of middle earth would probably have been destroyed. First, there would have been no Fellowship. Therefore, Aragorn would not have gone south, to gather the Oathbreakers. Minas Tirith would have fallen to the Witch King and the Corsairs. Gandalf would not have died, therefore no Gandalf the White to help Erkenbrand reinforce Helm's Deep.
And I do not know of any evidence. Sauron did not have any bases on the shores of Eriador; that is why he did not consider hobbits. Interesting thread!

[Rhod the Red]

Yes, it is interesting. As we all know, it's instinct that makes us take the easiest path, but wisdom to take the hardest and most dangerious road.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by ninja91

If the ring HAD gone over the sea, the good peoples of middle earth would probably have been destroyed.

A good point. Without destroying the Ring and therefore destroying Sauron, the free peoples of Middle-Earth would have very likely perished.

Minas Tirith would have fallen to the Witch King and the Corsairs.

Do you then think that the Corsairs and/or the Nazgûl would not have been the ones who would have went after the Ship of the Ring? Who then?

[ninja91]

Well, Thinlomien, thats a good question. I believe that Sauron (if he knew about the Ring sailing over the sea) would probably have sent the Corsairs after it, and in the meantime the host of Minas Morgul would have sieged and crushed the defense of Minas Tirith. At that, even if the Rohirrim came then to their aid, they also would have been slaughtered by the Haradrim and the remaining orcs. No Aragorn and no Gandalf, and no Army of the Dead to come and save the day!

[narfforc]

I do not think that Sauron considered that the Ring would be sent Westward anymore than he thought it would be destroyed, I believe he fully expected someone like Gandalf or Aragorn to appear wearing it in opposition to himself, his thoughts were that if any of his enemies found the Ring, they wouldnt/couldnt fail to use it, that is how three little hobbits managed to sneak into Mordor.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by narfforc

I do not think that Sauron considered that the Ring would be sent Westward anymore than he thought it would be destroyed, I believe he fully expected someone like Gandalf or Aragorn to appear wearing it in opposition to himself, his thoughts were that if any of his enemies found the Ring, they wouldnt/couldnt fail to use it, that is how three little hobbits managed to sneak into Mordor.

So you disagree with Elrond and other big guys? Elrond said that the westward road looks easiest and should therefore be avoided and the only thing I can conclude from this is that Elrond meant that Sauron might guess that they are sending the Ring over the Sea and guard the way.

[narfforc]

That is Glorfindels and Galdors perspective, what people at the council were thinking was second guessing Sauron, it is Elrond who says: And those who dwell in the west would not recieve it, he also says: The westward road seems easiest. Therefore it should be shunned, only because that was the way the Elves always went. The Dark Lord expected one of the leaders of Middle-earth to appear on his doorstep, that would hardly have happened with the Ring sat in Valinor. Another point is that Sauron as one of The Ainur could know that The Valar would not recieve the Ring, or at least to have the same wisdom as Elrond in these matters.