Nine for Mortal Men Doomed to Die - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

steve · 11-07-2002, 09:32 PM

Bear with me, i havent gotten around to reading HoME yet (not gotten around but preoccupied reading LOTR over again before movie comes out so i can pick out all the little flaws and yell them out at the screen) but when the 9 Kings of men were corupted by Sauron, when they became Ringwraiths, did they keep the rings of power, or did sauron take them?

Arwen1858 · 11-07-2002, 09:43 PM

Good question! I would like to know the answer, too. They don't really take much of a physical form, which is why they have the cloaks, to give them shape. So, do they fingers to wear rings on? If not, where are the rings now, and how are they being used?
Arwen

Westerly Wizard · 11-07-2002, 09:52 PM

I would have to say they do not have the Rings

There is quite a bit of evidence to show the Nine Rings were held by Sauron, not worn by the Nazgul.

in the Unfinished Tales, Tolkien writes "They [the naz-gul] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to the Nine Rings, which he now himself held" (The Hunt for the Ring")

Also, in Letter # 246 Tolkien wrote: "Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control."

Galadriel also says* to Frodo: "You saw the Eye of him that holds the seven and the Nine." (FOTR - The Mirror of Galadriel) confirming Sauron's direct possession of the nine.

"Gandalf enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings*and seeking for news of the One, and Isildur’s heir." (appendix B).

Furthermore, Frodo gives a thorough description of the appearence of the nazgul in "A Knife in the Dark" but no mention of a ring.

The only dissenting argument is tha Gandalf says at the Council of Elrond: "The Nine the Nazgul keep." But this is one saying (by a character (albeit the wisest)) among several that clearly go against it.

steve · 11-07-2002, 10:05 PM

Yes, but if at the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron did not have any physical form, how did he hold the nine rings, and if they were hiden, where, not in the keepsake of the orc nor with Saruman

Arwen1858 · 11-07-2002, 11:12 PM

but Sauron didn't have all 7 of the dwarvish rings, did he? I am new to Tolkien, so not completly sure, but weren't some of the 7 lost or destryed? Therefore Sauron couldn't have them all....
Arwen

Arwen Imladris · 11-08-2002, 04:18 PM

Yup, your right, some of the rings where eaten by dragons, Sauron did have some, like Thorin's dad's.

Laivine · 11-10-2002, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he [Sauron] has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed.

steve · 11-10-2002, 12:40 PM

Yes, Yes, you went off on a tangent, but back on point, sauron could not have had all 9 rings of men because he only had 9 fingers, after the last alliance that is, but still in any case the rings would have been lost after he was destoryed in that battle

akhtene · 11-10-2002, 06:53 PM

Correct me if my English isn't up to the point, but I've supposed HOLD can also mean BIND or CONTROL, as well as 'grasp in the hand'. Perhaps it was like this - Sauron controlled the Nine while the Nazgul actually kept them. In this case Gandalf's words /Westerly Wizard's post/ make sense.

Besides, wouldn't the Nazgul, deprived of their rings, just go mad the way Gollum did?

steve · 11-10-2002, 08:45 PM

not really, Gollum is a living creature, or I should say was, the Nazgul are undead, soulless, beings under the controll of the One Ring, it was the One Ring that corrputed Smeagol, the Nazgul were not corrputed by the One Ring, they were corrputed by Sauron and their rings, not directly by the One ring like Smeagol was, and also, if they were to go insaine by the ring, sauron would just take controll of them again, or destroy them, and if sauron had the rings, would he not use them to his advantage?

Laivine · 11-11-2002, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Sauron controlled the Nine while the Nazgul actually kept them.

I also think that is what was meant by Sauron HOLDING the rings.

Quote:

Besides, wouldn't the Nazgul, deprived of their rings, just go mad the way Gollum did?

Not in the same way, I think, as Gollum. But I don't think there was possible taking away their rings, except perhaps by Sauron. And why would he do that?! They Nazgul was his 2nd most powerful weapon; they were fear! He had no need to have the 9 rings to himself, all he needed was The One, and then the bearers of the other Rings would have to obey him.

Quote:

or destroy them, and if sauron had the rings, would he not use them to his advantage?

He wouldn't destroy the Nazguls, after The One they were the most powerful weapon he had, and he already uses them to his advantage...

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Laivine ]

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Laivine ]

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Laivine ]

***Sharkû*** · 11-11-2002, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Just felt that I had to correct you on that; Sauron had no fingers after The Last Alliance at all, as he was nothing but a spirit and spirits doesn't have fingers nor wear rings.

As has been discussed at great length HERE and HERE, Sauron had a very physical form still and quite real hands.

"'Yes he has only nine fingers on the black hand, but they are enough.'" -- Gollum

"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic." -- Letter 246

Please refrain from spreading wrong opinions as far as possible.

Laivine · 11-11-2002, 11:00 AM

Ahh, sorry, need to re-read LotR I think (well, I am re-reading it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) I didn't exactly mean to go putting wrong ideas in to people's heads. It has already been edited out of my post...

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Laivine ]

Túroch · 11-11-2002, 12:48 PM

In my humble opinion I believe that the Ringwraiths actually posses the rings while Sauron holds the rings and their owners in his power. The rings that were givin to the men turned them into the wraiths that they are now. Biblo talked about how he felt thin and strched out. This is because the ring is slowly starting to affect him. Also when Frodo uses the ring at Amon Sul he enters the wraiths world when he becomes invisible. Now, the nine rings are of course different from the One but still it shows a connenction. Now Hobbits have an unusual resistancec to the rings and displayed by Biblbo, but Humans are perfectly suseptible to there power. Once given to them by Sauron they slowly slipped out of this world growing thinner and ghostlike till they became the wraiths. They still hold the nine, they can never tale them off in my opinion.

TolkienGurl · 11-11-2002, 02:24 PM

From what I understand, Sauron possesses the Nine as well as those of the Seven that still exist. I'm sure he would take the Three, if he could. That's how Sauron enslaved those once great Kings of Men: he took their Rings of Power and it destroyed their minds and their sense of will. Now they do whatever Sauron tells them to. They are the Servants of the Enemy in every sense. Mind and "body." Actually, maybe existence would be a better word because the Ringwraiths don't exactly have bodies.

Amanaduial the archer · 11-11-2002, 02:29 PM

I think when it says Sauron posseses the rings, its means that he owns them rather than has them with him. The nazgul are the kings whose downfall was brought about by the rings and I think the rings are what allows Sauron to so colsely control them. Also this is the reason why they can sense the one ring and even more strongly so when one puts it on- the nine are linked to the One.

Túroch · 11-11-2002, 05:14 PM

I agree with Amanaduial on this. The ring verse states that the one ring will "bind" the other rings. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya (the three elven rings) were not corrupted by Sauron and so he could not control them. The rings he gave to men were the means by which he controlled them and created the wringwraiths.

TolkienGurl · 11-11-2002, 06:09 PM

They are
"slaves of the Nine Rings"
"ensnared by their lust for power"
"totally subservient to their Master"

They "individually accepted from him Rings of Power, made, so Sauron said, to give them power over all other Men and and to give long life; and by this means he trapped them, for the Nine Rings of Power were also designed to enslave their wearers."

The Rings lengthened their days. Death was denied, and life became unbelieveably wearisome. The only power they gained was that of terror "...for unable to relinquish their Rings, the Nine Lords became in the end wraiths..."

Basically all the Rings except the Three and the chief of the Seven were suseptible to the One, for Sauron had a hand in their making. He corrupted and distorted them to a great extent, giving the Rings many powers of mind and hand.

Note: for some odd reason, the Dwarves were insuseptible to the power of the One. Their days were not lengthened, as were the Nine.

"The nature of the Ruling Ring was such that by its power Sauron was able to dominate and enslave the Nine."

Exerpts from The Tolkien Companion.

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 11-13-2002, 04:13 PM

Sauron held the rings. He probably even wore one on each finger (except his favorite finger). The ringwraithes would have lost the rings during the rising of the Bruinen when they fled bodiless back to Mordor. Plus, in the great description of the Witch King's greatness in Battle of Pelennor Fields, it made no mention. I think if they had it would have been mentioned there. In the movies, the wraithes wore them in the spiritual world, where they were merely representative of what they once were. Ghosts. Ghost rings, shadows of the ones adorning Sauron's fiery hands.

Haven't I posted this before? Deja vu all over again.

11-07-2002, 09:32 PM	#1
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	Nine for Mortal Men Doomed to Die Bear with me, i havent gotten around to reading HoME yet (not gotten around but preoccupied reading LOTR over again before movie comes out so i can pick out all the little flaws and yell them out at the screen) but when the 9 Kings of men were corupted by Sauron, when they became Ringwraiths, did they keep the rings of power, or did sauron take them? __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

11-07-2002, 09:43 PM	#2
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	Good question! I would like to know the answer, too. They don't really take much of a physical form, which is why they have the cloaks, to give them shape. So, do they fingers to wear rings on? If not, where are the rings now, and how are they being used? Arwen __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

11-07-2002, 09:52 PM	#3
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	I would have to say they do not have the Rings There is quite a bit of evidence to show the Nine Rings were held by Sauron, not worn by the Nazgul. in the Unfinished Tales, Tolkien writes "They [the naz-gul] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to the Nine Rings, which he now himself held" (The Hunt for the Ring") Also, in Letter # 246 Tolkien wrote: "Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control." Galadriel also says* to Frodo: "You saw the Eye of him that holds the seven and the Nine." (FOTR - The Mirror of Galadriel) confirming Sauron's direct possession of the nine. "Gandalf enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings*and seeking for news of the One, and Isildur’s heir." (appendix B). Furthermore, Frodo gives a thorough description of the appearence of the nazgul in "A Knife in the Dark" but no mention of a ring. The only dissenting argument is tha Gandalf says at the Council of Elrond: "The Nine the Nazgul keep." But this is one saying (by a character (albeit the wisest)) among several that clearly go against it. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

11-07-2002, 10:05 PM	#4
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	Yes, but if at the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron did not have any physical form, how did he hold the nine rings, and if they were hiden, where, not in the keepsake of the orc nor with Saruman __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

11-07-2002, 11:12 PM	#5
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	but Sauron didn't have all 7 of the dwarvish rings, did he? I am new to Tolkien, so not completly sure, but weren't some of the 7 lost or destryed? Therefore Sauron couldn't have them all.... Arwen __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

11-08-2002, 04:18 PM	#6
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Yup, your right, some of the rings where eaten by dragons, Sauron did have some, like Thorin's dad's. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

11-10-2002, 12:40 PM	#8
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	Yes, Yes, you went off on a tangent, but back on point, sauron could not have had all 9 rings of men because he only had 9 fingers, after the last alliance that is, but still in any case the rings would have been lost after he was destoryed in that battle __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

11-10-2002, 06:53 PM	#9
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	Correct me if my English isn't up to the point, but I've supposed HOLD can also mean BIND or CONTROL, as well as 'grasp in the hand'. Perhaps it was like this - Sauron controlled the Nine while the Nazgul actually kept them. In this case Gandalf's words /Westerly Wizard's post/ make sense. Besides, wouldn't the Nazgul, deprived of their rings, just go mad the way Gollum did? __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

11-10-2002, 08:45 PM	#10
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	not really, Gollum is a living creature, or I should say was, the Nazgul are undead, soulless, beings under the controll of the One Ring, it was the One Ring that corrputed Smeagol, the Nazgul were not corrputed by the One Ring, they were corrputed by Sauron and their rings, not directly by the One ring like Smeagol was, and also, if they were to go insaine by the ring, sauron would just take controll of them again, or destroy them, and if sauron had the rings, would he not use them to his advantage? __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

11-11-2002, 11:00 AM	#13
Laivine Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 131	Ahh, sorry, need to re-read LotR I think (well, I am re-reading it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) I didn't exactly mean to go putting wrong ideas in to people's heads. It has already been edited out of my post... [ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Laivine ] __________________ Vi er det vi tenker. Alt vi er vokser frem fra tankene våre. Det er tankene våre som bygger verden.

11-11-2002, 12:48 PM	#14
Túroch Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State University Posts: 102	In my humble opinion I believe that the Ringwraiths actually posses the rings while Sauron holds the rings and their owners in his power. The rings that were givin to the men turned them into the wraiths that they are now. Biblo talked about how he felt thin and strched out. This is because the ring is slowly starting to affect him. Also when Frodo uses the ring at Amon Sul he enters the wraiths world when he becomes invisible. Now, the nine rings are of course different from the One but still it shows a connenction. Now Hobbits have an unusual resistancec to the rings and displayed by Biblbo, but Humans are perfectly suseptible to there power. Once given to them by Sauron they slowly slipped out of this world growing thinner and ghostlike till they became the wraiths. They still hold the nine, they can never tale them off in my opinion. __________________ For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which thay had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness." Ulmo - Lord of waters

11-11-2002, 02:24 PM	#15
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	From what I understand, Sauron possesses the Nine as well as those of the Seven that still exist. I'm sure he would take the Three, if he could. That's how Sauron enslaved those once great Kings of Men: he took their Rings of Power and it destroyed their minds and their sense of will. Now they do whatever Sauron tells them to. They are the Servants of the Enemy in every sense. Mind and "body." Actually, maybe existence would be a better word because the Ringwraiths don't exactly have bodies. __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal

11-11-2002, 02:29 PM	#16
Amanaduial the archer Shadow of Starlight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dancing among the ledgerlines... Posts: 2,347	I think when it says Sauron posseses the rings, its means that he owns them rather than has them with him. The nazgul are the kings whose downfall was brought about by the rings and I think the rings are what allows Sauron to so colsely control them. Also this is the reason why they can sense the one ring and even more strongly so when one puts it on- the nine are linked to the One. __________________ I am what I was, a harmless little devil

11-11-2002, 05:14 PM	#17
Túroch Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State University Posts: 102	I agree with Amanaduial on this. The ring verse states that the one ring will "bind" the other rings. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya (the three elven rings) were not corrupted by Sauron and so he could not control them. The rings he gave to men were the means by which he controlled them and created the wringwraiths. __________________ For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which thay had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness." Ulmo - Lord of waters

11-11-2002, 06:09 PM	#18
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	They are "slaves of the Nine Rings" "ensnared by their lust for power" "totally subservient to their Master" They "individually accepted from him Rings of Power, made, so Sauron said, to give them power over all other Men and and to give long life; and by this means he trapped them, for the Nine Rings of Power were also designed to enslave their wearers." The Rings lengthened their days. Death was denied, and life became unbelieveably wearisome. The only power they gained was that of terror "...for unable to relinquish their Rings, the Nine Lords became in the end wraiths..." Basically all the Rings except the Three and the chief of the Seven were suseptible to the One, for Sauron had a hand in their making. He corrupted and distorted them to a great extent, giving the Rings many powers of mind and hand. Note: for some odd reason, the Dwarves were insuseptible to the power of the One. Their days were not lengthened, as were the Nine. "The nature of the Ruling Ring was such that by its power Sauron was able to dominate and enslave the Nine." Exerpts from The Tolkien Companion. __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal

11-13-2002, 04:13 PM	#19
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	Sauron held the rings. He probably even wore one on each finger (except his favorite finger). The ringwraithes would have lost the rings during the rising of the Bruinen when they fled bodiless back to Mordor. Plus, in the great description of the Witch King's greatness in Battle of Pelennor Fields, it made no mention. I think if they had it would have been mentioned there. In the movies, the wraithes wore them in the spiritual world, where they were merely representative of what they once were. Ghosts. Ghost rings, shadows of the ones adorning Sauron's fiery hands. Haven't I posted this before? Deja vu all over again. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling