The Witch-King?????? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mattius · 11-17-2002, 05:07 PM

Just a few questions about this fella.

Where did he come from?

What race was he?

How old was he, was he from the time of Melker?

How did he get his power, was he a 'witch' or was he a creation of Morgoth/Sauron?

Was he tricked into taking the ring as the other 8 men kings did or did Sauron's simply pursuade him???

Thank you for your help, this character has always interested me.

Manwe Sulimo · 11-17-2002, 05:12 PM

Err, let's see...

1) Probably Númenor, but possibly from Rhûn or Haradwaith.

2) Man, obviously.

3) No older than 4000 years. Not from the First Age.

4) From his Ring.

5) Isn't "persuading" just another way to say "tricking"?

Mattius · 11-17-2002, 05:14 PM

no i mean before he had the ring, he was the witch-king then but where did that power come from?

Manwe Sulimo · 11-17-2002, 05:16 PM

Uhhh....what?

He became the Witch-king of the Nazgûl. The Lord of the Nazgûl, etc. He was just a "great king of Men" before that.

Mattius · 11-17-2002, 05:27 PM

now i see, its just he was always referred to as the witch-king all the time, even before he had the ring

Manwe Sulimo · 11-17-2002, 07:21 PM

Now I'm really confused...

When does it refer to him before he became the Witch-king?

11-18-2002, 07:07 AM

The Witch-king is the name given to the Lord of the Nazgûl when he led the forces of Angbad against Arnor in the Third Age (c.a. 1300 until 1975). I don't remember ever reading about what he specifically was before corrupted by the ring, just that all nine were kings, warriors or sorcerers before recieving their rings.

lathspell · 11-18-2002, 07:38 AM

The name 'Witchking' was given to him when he first came into battle. No one knew what he was and where he came from. They only knew that he wielded great power and was a deadly foe. Therefore they named him 'WitchKing'.

There are no records of his name, before he went into evil. I think it is generally believed that he was one of the Fallen Numenorians.

greetings,
lathspell

Iargwath · 11-20-2002, 04:33 AM

I did some research on the Witch-king and i was very suprised at the amount of things he has achieved.
Witch-king
Nazgul lord of the Ringwraiths. The Witch-king was originally a sorcerer king in the Second Age who was given the first of the Nine Rings by the Lord of the Rings. He became the Lord of the Nazgul, or Ringwraiths.
During the Second Age, he commanded Saurons forces and fought his battles, but with the downfall of the Ring Lord and the taking of the One Ring, he was swept away into a shadow. However, since the One Ring was not destroyed, after a thousand years Sauron called him back from the shadows.
In 1300 of the Third Age, he rose up in the form of the Witch-king of Angmar. For nearly 700 years he made constant war on the Northern Kingdom of Arnor until 1974, when he destroyed its last stronghold in Arthedain. The next year, his own forces were routed and his evil kingdom of Angmar destroyed after the battle of Fornost. The destruction of the North-kingdom of the Dunedain having been achieved, in the year 2000, he turned his attentions to the South-kingdom of Gondor. He attacked and took Minas Ithil, and renamed it Minas Morgul. He fought in the realm of Gondor for a thousand years.
In 3018, disguised as one of the black riders, he led the other Ringwraiths to the Shire in search for the One Ring. At Weathertop, he wounded the Ringbearer, then pursued him as far as the Fords of Rivendell. In 3019, the Witch-King led his vast Morgul army and his Haradrim allies in an attack on the Whit Tower. In the Battle of Pelennor Fields he slew King Theoden, but in a strange fulfilment prophecy that he could not be slain by the hand of man-he met his death at the hands of maiden Eowyn and the hobbit Merry armed with a charmed elven sword.
Sources
*Lord of the Rings Appendix A, pg 12
*David Day's guide
*Encyclopedia of Arda at this page

[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Iargwath ]

Lhunbelethiel · 11-20-2002, 03:07 PM

Thank you for the question AND the answer-- I had been wondering about the Witch King myself for some time.

I also wasn't clear on who the "Necromancer" was. They say he was in Mirkwood.... was he Sauron? And, on a slightly different topic, what is the "secret flame" that Gandalf mentions when he is fighting the Balrog? He says he is the weilder of the "secret flame".... Is he referring to his Ring? Thanks in advance. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Mattius · 11-20-2002, 03:26 PM

I believe that the "necromancer" was a reference to Sauron (its in The Hobbit I think) but Im sure it means 'enemy' or something because Gandalf and the White Council arn't sure if it actually is Sauron. The secret flame thing, maybe its a refernce to the powers he has been given by Manwe(?) Someone help us out here please!

Joy · 11-20-2002, 08:15 PM

Quote:

I believe that the "necromancer" was a reference to Sauron (its in The Hobbit I think) but Im sure it means 'enemy' or something because Gandalf and the White Council arn't sure if it actually is Sauron. The secret flame thing, maybe its a refernce to the powers he has been given by Manwe(?) Someone help us out here please!

I am not going to answer the first part concerning Sauron and the Necromancer, but I would like to address the Secret Fire and the Flame of Arnor.

The Secret Fire is a refernce back to the Valaquenta in the Silmarillion.

Quote:

Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä."

It seems to represent existence and creation. Little can be said of it for certain, though it seems to be identified with the Flame Imperishable of Ilúvatar.

Quote:

The Flame Imperishable seems to represent that aspect of Ilúvatar through which he was able to grant free will and true life to the beings he created. - from Encyc of Arda.

Sauron had nothing to do with the Secret fire. It was Melkor/Morgoth who desired it. When Gandalf spoke of being the "Servant of the Secret Fire", it seems that he was stating the he was a servant of Eru Iluvatar

11-17-2002, 05:07 PM	#1
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	The Witch-King?????? Just a few questions about this fella. Where did he come from? What race was he? How old was he, was he from the time of Melker? How did he get his power, was he a 'witch' or was he a creation of Morgoth/Sauron? Was he tricked into taking the ring as the other 8 men kings did or did Sauron's simply pursuade him??? Thank you for your help, this character has always interested me. __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?

11-17-2002, 05:12 PM	#2
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Err, let's see... 1) Probably Númenor, but possibly from Rhûn or Haradwaith. 2) Man, obviously. 3) No older than 4000 years. Not from the First Age. 4) From his Ring. 5) Isn't "persuading" just another way to say "tricking"? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-17-2002, 05:14 PM	#3
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	no i mean before he had the ring, he was the witch-king then but where did that power come from? __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?

11-17-2002, 05:16 PM	#4
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Uhhh....what? He became the Witch-king of the Nazgûl. The Lord of the Nazgûl, etc. He was just a "great king of Men" before that. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-17-2002, 05:27 PM	#5
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	now i see, its just he was always referred to as the witch-king all the time, even before he had the ring __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?

11-17-2002, 07:21 PM	#6
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Now I'm really confused... When does it refer to him before he became the Witch-king? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-18-2002, 07:07 AM	#7
Vanya Guest Posts: n/a	The Witch-king is the name given to the Lord of the Nazgûl when he led the forces of Angbad against Arnor in the Third Age (c.a. 1300 until 1975). I don't remember ever reading about what he specifically was before corrupted by the ring, just that all nine were kings, warriors or sorcerers before recieving their rings.

11-18-2002, 07:38 AM	#8
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	The name 'Witchking' was given to him when he first came into battle. No one knew what he was and where he came from. They only knew that he wielded great power and was a deadly foe. Therefore they named him 'WitchKing'. There are no records of his name, before he went into evil. I think it is generally believed that he was one of the Fallen Numenorians. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

11-20-2002, 04:33 AM	#9
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	I did some research on the Witch-king and i was very suprised at the amount of things he has achieved. Witch-king Nazgul lord of the Ringwraiths. The Witch-king was originally a sorcerer king in the Second Age who was given the first of the Nine Rings by the Lord of the Rings. He became the Lord of the Nazgul, or Ringwraiths. During the Second Age, he commanded Saurons forces and fought his battles, but with the downfall of the Ring Lord and the taking of the One Ring, he was swept away into a shadow. However, since the One Ring was not destroyed, after a thousand years Sauron called him back from the shadows. In 1300 of the Third Age, he rose up in the form of the Witch-king of Angmar. For nearly 700 years he made constant war on the Northern Kingdom of Arnor until 1974, when he destroyed its last stronghold in Arthedain. The next year, his own forces were routed and his evil kingdom of Angmar destroyed after the battle of Fornost. The destruction of the North-kingdom of the Dunedain having been achieved, in the year 2000, he turned his attentions to the South-kingdom of Gondor. He attacked and took Minas Ithil, and renamed it Minas Morgul. He fought in the realm of Gondor for a thousand years. In 3018, disguised as one of the black riders, he led the other Ringwraiths to the Shire in search for the One Ring. At Weathertop, he wounded the Ringbearer, then pursued him as far as the Fords of Rivendell. In 3019, the Witch-King led his vast Morgul army and his Haradrim allies in an attack on the Whit Tower. In the Battle of Pelennor Fields he slew King Theoden, but in a strange fulfilment prophecy that he could not be slain by the hand of man-he met his death at the hands of maiden Eowyn and the hobbit Merry armed with a charmed elven sword. Sources Lord of the Rings Appendix A, pg 12 David Day's guide *Encyclopedia of Arda at this page [ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Iargwath ] __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

11-20-2002, 03:07 PM	#10
Lhunbelethiel Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Francisco Bay Area (aka Bay of Belfalas) Posts: 103	Thank you for the question AND the answer-- I had been wondering about the Witch King myself for some time. I also wasn't clear on who the "Necromancer" was. They say he was in Mirkwood.... was he Sauron? And, on a slightly different topic, what is the "secret flame" that Gandalf mentions when he is fighting the Balrog? He says he is the weilder of the "secret flame".... Is he referring to his Ring? Thanks in advance. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ ~~All that is gold does not glitter, not all who wander are lost, all that is old does not wither, deep roots are not touched by the frost...~~

11-20-2002, 03:26 PM	#11
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	I believe that the "necromancer" was a reference to Sauron (its in The Hobbit I think) but Im sure it means 'enemy' or something because Gandalf and the White Council arn't sure if it actually is Sauron. The secret flame thing, maybe its a refernce to the powers he has been given by Manwe(?) Someone help us out here please! __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?