Flame Imperishable - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

busybee · 10-10-2002, 11:35 AM

I was wondering what is the 'Flame Imperishable'??Why did Melkor want it? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

TolkienGurl · 10-10-2002, 11:49 AM

I was wondering that too! I just started the Silm last night and had to read it slowly to understand it!

lathspell · 10-10-2002, 02:26 PM

I can be wrong in this, but I always thought that the Flame Imperishable was Eä. And Iluvatar said Eä was deep within the planet and therefore I guess that the Flame Imperishable is the planet core.
It is some time since I last read the Silm, but I believe that Melkor thought that that with the F.P. he could create things of his own (as Iluvatar made the Elves), yet he could never find it.

greetings,
lathspell

**lindil** · 10-10-2002, 02:34 PM

According to p. 345 of Morgoth's Ring, note 11 in the Athrabeth Ah Finrod Andreth it is "the Creative activity of Eru" Iluvatar.

In another place i can't locate off the top of my head JRRT more explicitly identifies it w/ the Holy Spirit.

Aiwendil · 10-10-2002, 02:37 PM

I think that the Flame Imperishable (which equals the Secret Fire) is the creative force of Iluvatar. From a Christian theological perspective, it is the "Holy Spirit" aspect of God. Melkor makes the mistake of thinking that the creative force is something external, so he goes into the void to look for it. He does not know that it is "with Iluvatar"; i.e., it is Iluvatar.

Two things lead me to this assertion:
1. Iluvatar says to the Ainur: "And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, you shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme . . . " Indicates that it is the Flame Imperishable that allows them to adorn the theme (sub-creation).

2. He says that he shall "send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be", equating the existence of the World (as a physical reality rather than a mere vision) with the fact that it contains the Flame Imperishable.

Edit: Lindil seems to have beaten me to it, posting his reply before I had finished writing. I had forgotten the passage in Morgoth's Ring, but it's good to see that my hypothetical explanation is in fact attested.

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

Nils · 10-10-2002, 02:41 PM

Both Eru and Aule were able to create creatures. The difference being that Aule's creation did not have free will. Therefore I believe that the Flame Imperishable is what allows a creator to impart free will to his creation.

TolkienGurl · 10-10-2002, 02:45 PM

Wow. It sounds like God kindling the flame of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men, sending them into the Void, or the 'sinful world devoid of hope.' Hmmmm... can't think of a Bible verse... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Helkasir · 10-10-2002, 04:29 PM

The Flame Imperishable is Iluvatar, as said many many times above. What I did not get was what Melkor wanted with it. Okay, he wants to make a race. He really doesn't need it; after all, why give a slave free will?

Aiwendil · 10-10-2002, 05:20 PM

Quote:

The Flame Imperishable is Iluvatar, as said many many times above. What I did not get was what Melkor wanted with it. Okay, he wants to make a race. He really doesn't need it; after all, why give a slave free will?

I don't think that Melkor's original desire was to create slaves; he genuinely wanted to create things, like Iluvatar.

Artanis · 10-10-2002, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Iluvatar said Eä was deep within the planet and therefore I guess that the Flame Imperishable is the planet core.

Actually, Ea is the world (I think. It has been a while since I read the Sil.) And I do agree with the veiw that the Flame is like the Holy Spirit. Melkor was jelous of Illuvitar's power and wanted to create, but he could only maim. Don't think that Melkor was just misunderstood, though, it was he that first brought discord to the Great Music.

Helkasir · 10-10-2002, 08:34 PM

Quote:

I don't think that Melkor's original desire was to create slaves; he genuinely wanted to create things, like Iluvatar.

I didn't read ainunidale to closely; what drove Melkor to being "Evil?"

Nils · 10-10-2002, 08:43 PM

I didn't read ainunidale to closely; what drove Melkor to being "Evil?"

His desire to make his own way. He wanted to create his own music, not Eru's. His desire to control and become king of all. This is the thing that drove Melkor to being 'Evil'.

10-10-2002, 11:35 AM	#1
busybee Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood, Lothlorien...dream...actually the middle of nowhere...Mumbai Posts: 89	Flame Imperishable I was wondering what is the 'Flame Imperishable'??Why did Melkor want it? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ Pleeze does anyone know of a magical doorway or something to Middle Earth!?!?

10-10-2002, 11:49 AM	#2
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	I was wondering that too! I just started the Silm last night and had to read it slowly to understand it! __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal

10-10-2002, 02:26 PM	#3
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	I can be wrong in this, but I always thought that the Flame Imperishable was Eä. And Iluvatar said Eä was deep within the planet and therefore I guess that the Flame Imperishable is the planet core. It is some time since I last read the Silm, but I believe that Melkor thought that that with the F.P. he could create things of his own (as Iluvatar made the Elves), yet he could never find it. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

10-10-2002, 02:34 PM	#4
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	According to p. 345 of Morgoth's Ring, note 11 in the Athrabeth Ah Finrod Andreth it is "the Creative activity of Eru" Iluvatar. In another place i can't locate off the top of my head JRRT more explicitly identifies it w/ the Holy Spirit. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-10-2002, 02:41 PM	#6
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	Both Eru and Aule were able to create creatures. The difference being that Aule's creation did not have free will. Therefore I believe that the Flame Imperishable is what allows a creator to impart free will to his creation. __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

10-10-2002, 02:37 PM	#5
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I think that the Flame Imperishable (which equals the Secret Fire) is the creative force of Iluvatar. From a Christian theological perspective, it is the "Holy Spirit" aspect of God. Melkor makes the mistake of thinking that the creative force is something external, so he goes into the void to look for it. He does not know that it is "with Iluvatar"; i.e., it is Iluvatar. Two things lead me to this assertion: 1. Iluvatar says to the Ainur: "And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, you shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme . . . " Indicates that it is the Flame Imperishable that allows them to adorn the theme (sub-creation). 2. He says that he shall "send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be", equating the existence of the World (as a physical reality rather than a mere vision) with the fact that it contains the Flame Imperishable. Edit: Lindil seems to have beaten me to it, posting his reply before I had finished writing. I had forgotten the passage in Morgoth's Ring, but it's good to see that my hypothetical explanation is in fact attested. [ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

10-10-2002, 02:45 PM	#7
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	Wow. It sounds like God kindling the flame of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men, sending them into the Void, or the 'sinful world devoid of hope.' Hmmmm... can't think of a Bible verse... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal

10-10-2002, 04:29 PM	#8
Helkasir Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North of the Iron Hills Posts: 89	The Flame Imperishable is Iluvatar, as said many many times above. What I did not get was what Melkor wanted with it. Okay, he wants to make a race. He really doesn't need it; after all, why give a slave free will? __________________ "Onen i-Estal Edain, u-chebin estel anim."

10-10-2002, 08:43 PM	#12
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	I didn't read ainunidale to closely; what drove Melkor to being "Evil?" His desire to make his own way. He wanted to create his own music, not Eru's. His desire to control and become king of all. This is the thing that drove Melkor to being 'Evil'. __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37