Oldest Elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

the real findorfin · 10-03-2002, 02:27 AM

I was reading the 'oldest creature' topic and thought of this.

Now of all the famous elves Cirdan is probably the eldest in ME. What about Olwe and Ingwe, are they older or younger? Were Finwe and Elwe older? And are there any other 1st generation elves you can think of? Are there any that are not well-known?

How old was Eol?

Iargwath · 10-03-2002, 03:52 AM

It can be said that Cirdan was indeed from the Cuiviénen times (Years of the trees). So it can be said that Cirdan may be the oldest of the elves.

Olwë to my knowledge was a lord in Aman, which was indeed the Blessed Realm or Undying Lands. From this i gather that Cirdan was older than Olwë. But Olwë was born in the Years of Trees at the Cuiviénen

Not much information is given on Ingwë regarding his age. But as i know he was the lord of the Vanyar (the fair elves). It is also said that the Vanyar made their way to Valinor a long time before the first age and resided there. I dont know what can be seen from this information, but if the Vanyarin elves left for Valinor long before the first age, Ingwë may be much older, Meaning he could have been born during the Years of Trees as well.

Finwë awoke at Cuiviénen, but since the Years of Trees do not have specific dates like the Ages do, its very hard to track down the earliest elf. So basically not much of the information i know is certain.

It is in my knowledge that Elwë was the ancient name to King Thingol. Here is a quote from the Silmarillion:

Quote:

Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen.

As i mentioned before it is difficult to track down specific dates when talking Years of Trees times. But i know for a fact that Thingol has two brothers, Olwë and Elmo. Both brothers (Olwë and Thingol) were born by the waters of Cuiviénen, but the date is unknown to me.

As for Eöl (the dark elf), he was Kin to Thingol, meaning he was younger than Thingol. Thats what i presume.

As for other elves what about Oromë? Didnt he come to Arda at its very beginning? Im not too sure

I have looked into many sites for a detailed family tree for the elves and have found one at The Encyclopedia of Arda Just click on Elves if it doesnt give you the page right away.

I hope i have helped in a way, but please correct me if i am wrong anybody [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

-Iargwath

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Iargwath ]

lathspell · 10-03-2002, 07:53 AM

Elwë (Thingol), Olwë, Finwë and Ingwë were all born at the waters of Cuivienen in the very beginning. The Three Lords of the Elves were Elwe (Teleri), Finwë (Noldor) and Ingwë (Vanyar)... but Elwe was lost upon the way to Aman. Olwe replaced him as Lord of the Teleri.
Cirdan is mentioned during the Movement to Aman as well. There were few that wouldn't pass the sea and remained in Beleriand, of these Cirdan was the Lord. So he was there also very early and I think that he was also there from the beginning.
Another elf that is mentioned in the beginning is Lenwë. He is Leader of the group that didn't wish to cross the Anduin and the Misty Mountains and turned South there, these were the Nandor.

I don't remember other names of old Elves (the 1st generation, I mean).

greetings,
lathspell

Aiwendil · 10-03-2002, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Elwë (Thingol), Olwë, Finwë and Ingwë were all born at the waters of Cuivienen in the very beginning. The Three Lords of the Elves were Elwe (Teleri), Finwë (Noldor) and Ingwë (Vanyar)... but Elwe was lost upon the way to Aman. Olwe replaced him as Lord of the Teleri.

Well, Elwe and Olwe were brothers; I believe Ingwe was also said to have a sibling. In that case, they cannot have been among the first 144 to awake. The original lords of the Elves were Imin of the Minyar, Tata of the Tatyar, and Enel of the Nelyar; these groups later became the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri. For more concerning the first Elves see the Cuivienyarna in HoMe XI.

Legolas · 10-03-2002, 10:19 AM

Oromë is not an elf. He is a Vala.

The first six elves to awake, according to War of the Jewels, are Imin and Iminye, Tata and Tatie, Enel and Enelye...the masculine/feminine forms of one, two, and three.

Elwë Singollo isn't an ancient name for Elu Thingol. It's the Sindarin form.

Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo are held as candidates for being among the first to awake, but the problem with that is they are brothers. Brothers require parents. There were relation among the Valar...the relation created in Eru's mind...but these aren't primordial beings, so who knows if the same may apply?

Eol left Doriath because he didn't care for the Girdle of Melian. The Girdle of Melian appeared prior to the First Age, which means his birth at least predates that.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Aiwendil · 10-03-2002, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Elwë Singollo isn't an ancient name for Elu Thingol. It's the Sindarin form.

No. "Elwe Singollo" was the Quenya form ("Singollo" contracted from earlier "Sindacollo"). "Elu Thingol" is the Sindarin forml So "Elwe Singollow" is the older form.

Legolas · 10-03-2002, 07:04 PM

Excuse me...wasn't thinking. I knew they were both just the two Elvish forms; I was not thinking about which was which. Sorry.

My point was it wasn't ancient.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Iargwath · 10-04-2002, 05:29 AM

Hmm so i guess Elwë Singollo was the original name of Elu Thingol of Doriath.
All i know is that he changed his name to King Thngol when he setteled in Doriath with Melain. Is this correct?

HerenIstarion · 10-16-2002, 07:00 AM

I'd rather say his people (and general change of language) changed his name, than he himself.

10-03-2002, 02:27 AM	#1
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	Oldest Elves I was reading the 'oldest creature' topic and thought of this. Now of all the famous elves Cirdan is probably the eldest in ME. What about Olwe and Ingwe, are they older or younger? Were Finwe and Elwe older? And are there any other 1st generation elves you can think of? Are there any that are not well-known? How old was Eol? __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

10-03-2002, 07:53 AM	#3
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	Elwë (Thingol), Olwë, Finwë and Ingwë were all born at the waters of Cuivienen in the very beginning. The Three Lords of the Elves were Elwe (Teleri), Finwë (Noldor) and Ingwë (Vanyar)... but Elwe was lost upon the way to Aman. Olwe replaced him as Lord of the Teleri. Cirdan is mentioned during the Movement to Aman as well. There were few that wouldn't pass the sea and remained in Beleriand, of these Cirdan was the Lord. So he was there also very early and I think that he was also there from the beginning. Another elf that is mentioned in the beginning is Lenwë. He is Leader of the group that didn't wish to cross the Anduin and the Misty Mountains and turned South there, these were the Nandor. I don't remember other names of old Elves (the 1st generation, I mean). greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

10-03-2002, 10:19 AM	#5
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Oromë is not an elf. He is a Vala. The first six elves to awake, according to War of the Jewels, are Imin and Iminye, Tata and Tatie, Enel and Enelye...the masculine/feminine forms of one, two, and three. Elwë Singollo isn't an ancient name for Elu Thingol. It's the Sindarin form. Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo are held as candidates for being among the first to awake, but the problem with that is they are brothers. Brothers require parents. There were relation among the Valar...the relation created in Eru's mind...but these aren't primordial beings, so who knows if the same may apply? Eol left Doriath because he didn't care for the Girdle of Melian. The Girdle of Melian appeared prior to the First Age, which means his birth at least predates that. [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-03-2002, 07:04 PM	#7
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Excuse me...wasn't thinking. I knew they were both just the two Elvish forms; I was not thinking about which was which. Sorry. My point was it wasn't ancient. [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-04-2002, 05:29 AM	#8
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Hmm so i guess Elwë Singollo was the original name of Elu Thingol of Doriath. All i know is that he changed his name to King Thngol when he setteled in Doriath with Melain. Is this correct? __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

10-16-2002, 07:00 AM	#9
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	I'd rather say his people (and general change of language) changed his name, than he himself. __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!