Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
08-10-2002, 11:03 AM | #1 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
|
Why Man?
Regarding the Rings of power---
Quote:
Why man? What was Tolkien saying about our nature and destiny? Yes, I know Aule built the dwarfs with an extra measure of resistence to evil, since Melkor was still active in those days. And I know too how many of the Elves stood on the side of the light for the First and Second Ages, although some did slip especially if we accept the view that at least some orcs were corrupted Elves. And yes, the hobbits are in some sense, men too, although men with a slightly different twist from those who inhabit the world today. Yet, having acknowledged all this, I still can not help asking, why man? What was different about man, that they should turn into wraiths who were the principal tools through which Sauron worked?
__________________
Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. |
|
08-10-2002, 11:29 AM | #2 | |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
|
Men die. I think that becoming a wraith is the natural order of things when you don't die.
Quote:
Elves don't become wraiths because it would just take too long (and they didn't have evil rings). Dwarves are just stubborn. [ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
|
08-10-2002, 12:22 PM | #3 | |||
Spectre of Decay
|
The Silmarillion has something to say on this:
Quote:
Quote:
My reading of this is that it wasn't long life that turned the bearers of the Nine into wraiths, but the domination of the rings themselves, and the influence of the One acting through them. Of course it's still possible that this is a case of the sword outwearing its sheath, but there's no indication of a time-scale. They were also using their Rings regularly, and for greater things than achieving invisibility for short periods, probably hastening their collapse into thraldom. As for Hobbits, we have an implication from Gandalf that they may have been made of sterner stuff than Men: Quote:
Perhaps a combination of this trait and the fact that Gollum didn't use the One for great things, or particularly often was what kept him from becoming a wraith. I think that the same thing can be said of Bilbo, and the other Hobbit Ringbearers carried the One for only a short time, and used it hardly at all. Of course, there's always a possibility that the One was never designed to turn its bearer into a Wraith, or that it was a property of the Ring that required a specific act of will from Sauron, which would still be consistent with the piece quoted above. I'd be interested if anyone could shed any more light on this one.
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne? |
|||
08-10-2002, 12:38 PM | #4 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
|
Quote:
However, I think that there is also something to the notion that the One Ring did not confer wraithness. However, that's not something that we would be likely to find out because if a human (or hobbit) tried to claim the Ring as a tool of domination, that nonsense would have been summarily dealt with by Sauron. In other words there was no possibility of a mortal using the Ring for its intended purpose and remaining in possession of it long enough to become a wraith. [ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
08-10-2002, 12:47 PM | #5 | |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
|
You may be right, Squatter of Amon Rudh. Without a direct quote I'd say that it is between "natural process" and "the rings did it." Though either way, the rings did it.
Quote:
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
|
08-10-2002, 12:56 PM | #6 |
Spectre of Decay
|
Absolutely.
Mortal: "I claim this Ring, and shall use it to make myself great among the Mighty" Sauron: "No you won't" And the rest, apart from a rather sad, wet thud was silence [ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne? |
08-10-2002, 12:57 PM | #7 |
Sword of the Spirit
|
But what of this? When the nine were being corrupted, Sauron still had posession of the One.
This is obviously not the case with All of the Hobbit ring-bearers. What difference did it make?
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1 |
08-10-2002, 01:01 PM | #8 |
Spectre of Decay
|
I'd say that it meant that Sauron couldn't consciously have been working towards the precipitation of the bearer into wraithdom, whereas he could have been doing just that with the Nine.
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne? |
08-10-2002, 01:04 PM | #9 |
Sword of the Spirit
|
I would agree with you, Squatter.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1 |
08-10-2002, 01:12 PM | #10 | |
Spectre of Decay
|
Quote:
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne? |
|
08-10-2002, 01:28 PM | #11 |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
|
The rings were several hundred years old when the Nazgul first appeared. Who knows how long that had been in position of the rings? And who knows if they were invisible all the time then? I have no idea how long a Man would need to live before starting to turn into a wraith naturally, but I don't think the Numenoearns had lived that long yet. The best example that I know of is from Laws and Customs of the Eldar, which I gave above. Elves and Men have essentially the same bodies, so I think it can be applied well enough.
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
08-10-2002, 06:28 PM | #12 | |
Hostess of Spirits
|
Very interesting discussion... much has been said about what happened to the nine men who took the rings, but I don't believe that this has been touched on yet...
Quote:
Perhaps it was all part of the story, or maybe he was influenced by men he saw around him everyday. I've read that Tolkien was influenced a lot from his own life and that he wrote the evils in the book in relation to the evils in his life... the machine. His homeland was being detstroyed. It is quite clear that man is corrupted by the machine. Look at how we live today. We rely on machines. It's quite sad really. People freak out if they lose power for a few hours. Just as the nine kings in The Lord of the Rings were corrupted by the ring of power, and therefore relied on it's power. This is just a little comparison on my part... though far-fetched some may view it. |
|
08-11-2002, 07:42 AM | #13 |
Stormdancer of Doom
|
Consider Tolkien's outlook as a catholic. Every Ash Wednesday, each catholic gets his / her forehead dotted with ash, and is carefully told:
"Remember, man, that thou art dust And unto dust thou shalt return." Then Tolkien created several other races that were specifically not-man. I think he did so to have something stronger to work with, something less temptable, something perhaps a bit less fallen-- and perhaps, for contrast. (I know, elves can sin, and dwarves and hobbits too. But they are stronger, less tempted, as noted above.) But man-- dust to dust, ashes to ashes. For Tolkien, as a standard Catholic, redeemption for man in his sin can only be through the incarnation, crucifiction, and resurrection-- which, in the world of Middle-Earth, hasn't happened yet. So, yes. In the Catholic viewpoint, without access to the incarnation, crucifiction and resurrection, man always fights a losing battle. Especially when he sells his soul to the devil out of lust for power. Then he loses VERY quickly indeed. --Helen
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
08-11-2002, 07:57 AM | #14 |
Spectre of Decay
|
Which is exactly what the Nazgul have done. Good point.
[ August 11, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne? |
08-11-2002, 12:40 PM | #15 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
|
Thank you everyone, for your perspectives on this question. I have a case of the creeping crud (Houston style), and haven't gotten back before.
Is it a natural process caused by a soul being trapped too long in a body, or rather the actual domination by the Ring itself, perhaps strongly influenced by the use of that Ring by the person in question? Is it possible that more than one factor could have been in play? Neither Bilbo or Frodo turned into "wraiths" yet they were both affected and in need of healing. Aragorn, for example, seemed to inicate it was possible for hobbit to turn into a wraith. Let's look first at Bilbo, It seems that his "stretching" of the soul had more to do with longevity beyond the normal hobbit lifespan rather than any conscious decision to use the Ring for something beyond invisibility. The exact opposite was true of Frodo who was only 50 or so years when he began the Ring quest, having inherited the thing some 17 years before. He too was in danger of turning into a wraith for different reasons. He, unlike Bilbo, was consciously aware of the potential of the Ring, at least to some small degree, and presumably more subject to its temptation, to say nothing of the fact that Sauron was now more actively scouring about for it. So perhaps there was one more than one particular way of corruption. Squatter of Amon Rudh --LOL. I love your vignette with Sauron squashing the mortal. Helen-- Your point of tying this whole process to Tolkien's Catholicism and that view of man is well taken. I was kind of hinting at that as I initially typed out my question (not Catholicism per se, but our concept of the fall), but didn't have the grace or words to state it as well as you did! I still have many questions about how the hobbits themselves relate to the great fall (since they themselves are supposed to be men), and may do a thread on that some day. sharon, the 7th age hobbit
__________________
Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. |
08-11-2002, 04:51 PM | #16 |
Sword of the Spirit
|
There is one other thing I'd like to bring up. That is which ring each bearer held. I don't know that much about how the rings were forged but, if I'm not mistaken, (and correct me if I'm wrong, because I well may be) Were not the Elves rings forged BEFORE the one? And the 9 and the 7 AFTER The one? Would not this have made a difference as well? I certianly remember the line that the 3 "he has never touched"
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1 |
08-11-2002, 05:00 PM | #17 |
Dread Horseman
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,743
|
According to the Tale of Years, the three Elvish Rings were forged some ten years before the One. Though the chronology isn't specific on the others, it seems to be quite clearly implied that they were all forged prior to the Three, which represent Elvish ring-lore at its height.
[ August 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ] |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|