Boromir's ultimate, freaky motives...

[Thinlómien]

Why did Boromir go to Rivendell?

This has been troubling me all the week.

Yes, I know the book says that he went instead of Faramir because he insisted so and believed he was the better one to do it, and he had more strength.

That's maybe enough for some people, but not for me. What was Boromir's motive to take the task? Why on earth did Denethor let him go?

Wasn't Boromir the most important commander in Gondor's army? Both Boromir and Denethor should have known it. Consider the disadvantages of sending such a commander to a far land:

The soldiers' morale will decrease
1) They will start to worry/wonder about their commander and form conspiracy theories.
2) They will say. "If a Big Boss can leave the war, why can't we?" They will grow restless.
3) The contact (trust, and maybe even love) between the leader and the soldiers has been broken and the new leader has to start from the beginning.

Why would Boromir want to leave the war?
- Did he think it was the sacrifice: he should leave the war to find aid from Rivendell? Did he believe so much in the dream?
- Was he too proud to give the task to anyone else? If he was, wasn't that stupidity at that point?

More will come, when I will use my brains more...

[Rhod the Red]

He must have thought he would get some kind of answer or help from Elrond. And he found it: the One Ring.

But he didn't get it, thankfully.

[Farael]

I believe it's a matter of pride... HE was the eldest son so HE was "entitled" to go to Rivendel. It might have been his way to assert his superiority over his brother, or to gain favours from his father... or both.

Maybe it was also Denethor's idea. We know that he played favourites with his sons and that he regarded Faramir as a "wizard's pupil". Knowing that Gandalf may have been at Rivendel, he might have persuaded Boromir to go instead so that Gondor would have been represented by someone who thought along Denethor's lines.

[Boromir88]

Well, ok so we know he went to Rivendell to get answers to a riddle he had in his dream. Faramir had the same dream and he had it more times. So why not Faramir?

First I will say that it was Denethor and the Elders who decided Boromir should go instead of Faramir:

"Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier, and he would not be stayed."~The Window on the West

So, Boromir was the one chosen to go, but he was the one that put himself in front and said he would go. So, why did Boromir feel the need to go?

I'm gonna say it was fate. Both Boromir and Faramir were meant to come across the Ring and face the "test" of the Ring. Let's consider if it was Faramir chosen to go to Rivendell and join the Fellowhsip and Boromir stayed back at home.

If this situation happened, there are many things that could unfold. First, would Faramir fall to the temptation of the Ring and cause Frodo to leave the Company? If it wasn't for Boromir I don't think Frodo would have ever come across the decision of leaving the company (which was the smartest thing for Frodo to do). He found it hard to abandon the company even AFTER Boromir tried to take the ring, so I find it hard that Frodo would find the need to leave the company if he didn't have someone (like Boromir) to sort of give him an unintentional nudge. Would Faramir fall to the temptation of the Ring? Whether he would have or not, is up to you. But, Frodo came up with the decision to leave the Fellowship because of Boromir trying to take the Ring, and if he didn't have that happen then Frodo would not have left the company.

Another possibility is it would create a problem when Aragorn goes to Gondor. Assuming Boromir would still be alive when Aragorn gets to Gondor it would create strife and perhaps civil war. At first meeting Boromir was very apprehensive to accept Aragorn as the "heir," and King. But after their long time spent together in the Fellowship as Frodo remarks he always "showed Aragorn with honor." Boromir grew to accept Aragorn and they became rather good friends, and when Boromir dies he accepts Aragorn and tells him to save his city. So, if Boromir had stayed in Gondor, and Aragorn arrived, Boromir would have thought like he did when they first met in Rivendell, who in the heck is this guy? We don't need you, and then starts the trouble. In BoLT Tolkien contemplated this very idea of Boromir becoming evil and joining Saruman to try to overthrow Aragorn's claim:

Boromir and Aragorn (who notes a change in Boromir - who is keen to break off the chase and go home) reach Minas Tirith, which is besieged by Sauron except at back? Siege is briefly told from point of view of watchers on battlements. Evil has now hold of Boromir who is jealous of Aragorn. The Lord of Minas Tirith is slain (9) and they choose Aragorn. Boromir deserts and sneaks off to Saruman, to get his help in becoming Lord of Minas Tirith.~The Story Foreseen from Moria, The Treason of Isengard

So, had Boromir stayed behind in Minas Tirith, Aragorn would have faced strong resistance to him becoming King. But, since Boromir went to Rivendell and joined the Fellowship, he was able to grow and accept Aragorn.

The last other possibility, and probably the scariest of all. Is had Faramir and Boromir been switched. Assuming Frodo would be captured in Ithilien, it would have been Boromir faced with the decision about what to do with Frodo. Let him go on his quest to destroy the Ring, or bring it back to pops. I think we all would know what would have happened in this situation.

So, in conclusion:

1) He was chosen to go

2) The best thing to happen, was strangely enough, to have Boromir go to Rivendell instead of Faramir. As there would be a wide range of possibilities and changes that could have happened had Boromir stayed in Minas Tirith.

Edit:

It might have been his way to assert his superiority over his brother or to gain favours from his father... or both.~Farael

I don't think it was either. Despite Denethor's favoritism to Boromir the two brothers didn't let that come between them:

Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father's favour or for the praise of men. It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower, and of like mind was Boromir.~Appendix A: The Stewards

Even if Boromir was the favoured one and one that got more praise from the "Men," they didn't let that get between them. This may even bring up another possibility. Perhaps, Boromir felt as if he would be protecting Faramir, in not having him embark on such a long and tedious journey.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Tolkien's subtle sarcasm in the last line of that quote may give a hint as to the reason:

It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower, and of like mind was Boromir. (emphasis mine)

If Boromir thought of himself as unrivalled, it is very possible that he did not consider Faramir capable of finding the hidden vale of Imladris and thus the answer to the riddle. But the original question (which I find very interesting!) of this thread remains unanswered - why would the leaders of Gondor have chosen to send away the leader of their army?!

[Boromir88]

I thought about that too Estelyn, but I think of it more to emphasize Boromir's pride about himself. He thought he was the best as did Faramir. I don't think that it means Boromir didn't feel confident in his brother. It just goes to emphasize Boromir's pride in himself. Boromir and Faramir had a brotherly bond, and eventhough if Boromir saw himself as unrivalled, I don't see why he would feel that his brother was incompetant.

why would the leaders of Gondor have chosen to send away the leader of their army?!

And that still remains the biggest question. Perhaps they felt like he was the best for the job? I mean they wouldn't suspect of any danger that may happen to Boromir. He's going to Rivendell to get some advice from Elrond, and returning, they wouldn't expect anything bad that may happen. But, what still is the hard thing to figure out is exactly what you said, why send the leader of your army if you are facing pressure from Sauron and having to fight him off?

[davem]

At first I thought this thread was an attack on our own Boromir 88, & was going to jump to his defence, but then I thought, Nah, actually he does have quite freaky motives most of the time.....

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And that still remains the biggest question. Perhaps they felt like he was the best for the job? I mean they wouldn't suspect of any danger that may happen to Boromir. He's going to Rivendell to get some advice from Elrond, and returning, they wouldn't expect anything bad that may happen. But, what still is the hard thing to figure out is exactly what you said, why send the leader of your army if you are facing pressure from Sauron and having to fight him off?

Strange indeed. It seems Denethor&Co had only one person they could give an important task. Who leads the armies? Boromir. Who goes to Rivendell? Boromir. A bit boring.

I started to think what if they hadn't sent Bormir nor Faramir, but someone else. That could have been an option. (Yes, I know that maybe not a good one as the person wouldn't have seen the dream, but if I was Denethor I'd prefer it to sending the leader of the army.)

Was Boromir really so important to Gondor's army that it would have been indeed stupid to send him away, as I have said?
Not, maybe and after all. Denethor was pretty much the brains of the army anyway. He had another commanders to advice him. He had other commanders to do the "field job". The only real real problem would have been sending the figurehead guy away. Gondor could afford losing one good general. Gondor could afford losing one tactician (sp?).

Looking at Boromir's point of view, I still can't see why did he want to go himself. Yes, it was a matter of pride to him, but wasn't leading the army of Gondor a matter of pride to him as well? Was he bored to the war that was just little clashes here and there? Was he afraid? (Boromir the Coward, an interesting thought...)

[Formendacil]

One almost has to wonder...

What state was Boromir's military reputation in? Remember, Boromir left for Rivendell soon after losing the Bridge of Osgiliath to the Witchking. Now, obviously, anyone in the army would have been rather hard-pressed indeed to stand against him, and WE, the readers, can hardly fault Boromir, but would the Council of the Realm have seen likewise?

It's entirely speculation on my part, but one has to wonder if there weren't anti-Boromir (or anti-Denethor) politics involved. Gondor could hardly afford any divisiveness, to be sure- though that rarely stops people- and we see no evidence of it when we finally do reach Minas Tirith in the Return of the King- except somewhat between Faramir and Denethor. Was there perhaps (without his consent, most likely) a pro-Faramir party in Gondor? Was that the reason why Faramir was away commanding dangerous missions in Ithilien when he should possibly have been filling Boromir's shoes as Captain-General- was Denethor trying to protect his absent elder, favoured, son?

These are pure speculations on my part, but they are fun...

[Boromir88]

At first I thought this thread was an attack on our own Boromir 88, & was going to jump to his defence, but then I thought, Nah, actually he does have quite freaky motives most of the time.....

The valiant davem always looking after others and looking for his own glory therein. (That sounds sort of familiar and I'll get to it in a bit), but first.

Thinlomien:

Was Boromir really so important to Gondor's army that it would have been indeed stupid to send him away, as I have said?

Boromir is called the "Captain-General," in today's terms that would be like the Commander in Chief role. He would be the head of the army commanding it, not simply a figure head. In the US one of the presidents roles is to be the Commander in Chief of the armed forces, since he already has a lot of jobs and surely can't do everything by himself there are of course people there to help him and make decisions. However, the President is the head hancho of the army and can tell troops where to go. Also if we look at Rohan Theodred was the leader of Rohan's army. It seems custom to have the son and heir be the leader of your forces. So I woud say he was an important tool to the army.

Looking at Boromir's point of view, I still can't see why did he want to go himself.

Well let's see what Boromir has to tell us about receiving this dream:

"In this evil hour I have come on an errand over many dangerous leagues to Elrond: a hundred and tend days I have journeyed all alone. But I do not seek allies in war. The might of Elrond is in wisdom not in words. For it is said. I come to ask for counsel and the unravelling of hard words. For on the eve of the sudden assault a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came of to him again, and once to me.
In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there was a growing thunder, but in the West a pale light lingered, and out of it I heard a voice, remote but clear, crying:

Seek for the Sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be Counsels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
Ther shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shall stand.

Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters. Therefor my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave, and long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay."~The Council of Elrond

So, it seems from this that Boromir felt the road was doubtful and dangerous and that he should go (showing his pride and protectiveness for his brother). And Denethor reluctantly agreed to let him go.

I think Boromir was needed in Gondor, but the reason Denethor and the elders let him go was because he just wouldn't give up and insisted upon going. As Faramir told us his brother would not be stayed. So, Denethor reluctantly let Boromir go on this journey to Rivendell, fully expecting that he would return, however their time was pressing as Sauron as attacking.

Now, why would Boromir feel the need to go and put himself forward. It's probably a combination of things:
1) He felt the road was dangerous therefor his brother should stay behind and he would go.

2) Faramir tells us:

I could well believe that Boromir, the proud the fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it....~The Window on the West

Perhaps Boromir felt like Rivendell held answers as to how to save Gondor and he would go being "anxious" for it's victory and his glory.

I think those are the reasons why Boromir felt like he needed to go. And the reason that Denethor and the elders let him go was because he insisted to go and wouldn't have accepted anyone else going "he would not be stayed..."

Formendacil:

What state was Boromir's military reputation in?

I love speculating as well, there's a sort of freedom experienced by the reader to come up with their own ideas and thoughts. (Which Tolkien wanted to do and why he refused allegories). He wanted his readers to develop their own opinions about his books and sort of let them grow and change. But on this speculation of anti-Boromir and Denethor, I would have to disagree with you.

As far as Boromir's military reputation I think he was absolutely fine. Eventhough he did lose the recent battle they were far outnumbered and what ended up beating them was the Witch-King's presence. But, I doubt there was blame placed on Boromir for losing, as we are told the men loved him and here's probably why:

"Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horsemen, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. Only a remnant of our eastern force came back, destroying the last bridge that still stood amid the ruins of Osgiliath.
I was in the company that held the bridge, until it was cast down behind us. Four only were saved by swimming: my brother and myself and two others. But still we fight on, holding all the west shores of the Anduin; and those who shelter behind us give us praise, if ever they hear our name: much praise but little help. Only from Rohan now will any men ride to us when we call."~The Council of Elrond

It's very important to troops to have their leader fighting alongside them. It's an inspirational feeling and above that he fought until the absolute last minute when defeat was iminent...being one of the last men to escape. So, I despite the loss I still think he was adored and praised by the men.

As far as Denethor goes, considering people still listen to him when he's lost his mind and says burn me and my son, I would think also that he had the respect from his City. I'm sure had he been alive and resisted Aragorn's claim he wouldn't have had a lot of support especially after Aragorn proves himself. But, he proved himself very capable of leading Gondor until he foolishly believed he could be Sauron and his mind was litterally overthrown.

[The Saucepan Man]

I wonder also whether the calmer, deep-thinking Faramir was a more appropriate commander than his valiant but rash elder brother for the guerilla warfare which was necessary following the Fall of Osgiliath.

[Boromir88]

Sauce, Boromir certainly seemed to be the type to rush into battle (without always thinking), and I think him jumping onto the Bridge with Gandalf and Aragorn to fight the Balrog is a good example of this. Also, it's interesting that Boromir was compared to Earnur who rushed into a fight with the WK without thinking and it caused his end.

While Faramir was more like Denethor, and as we see Denethor who seems capable of fighting he played much more of a strategic role in defending Minas Tirith.

I think it's clear that Boromir was the better fighter, but that is an interesting question you bring up. It's sometimes good in a battle to act quickly and make quick decisions, but also you point out you don't want to be anxious and jump into something you're not prepared for. Which was certainly Boromir's style. I wonder if Faramir and Boromir fought together a lot, as they did in the battle before Boromir had departed. This would sort of counteract Boromir's rashness.

It also depends upon the situation. For fighting in the woods or where you can trap your enemy in a condensed place guerrilla warfare would be a much smarter move and seems to be Faramir's specialty. This of course requires patience and strategy to lure them into a place where they don't want to be and you can trap them.

However, when facing a siege or squaring off in an open battlefield there isn't much time to think. You have to go in with a strategy and you have to act quickly as it's all about trying to out play your opponent. So there's certain situations where guerilla warfare would be a better tactic, and other times when you just don't have the time to think you have to act.

But, you bring up a valid point.

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, I wasn't seeking to suggest that Boromir was not an exceptional military commander. I think they both were. But their different styles were probably suited to different styles of warfare.

[Thinlómien]

Boromir is called the "Captain-General," in today's terms that would be like the Commander in Chief role. He would be the head of the army commanding it, not simply a figure head.

I didn't mean to say he was only a figure head. I was saying that he was replacable as a tactician and as a general, but not as a figure head. The army of Gondor had another good tacticians and generals, but it didn't have another figure head. Or wait... maybe we could consider Faramir as one, though I'd rather not.