Gandalf blew Galadriel's cover?!

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

When Gandalf decided to praise Galadriel by reciting his little song rhyme of her beautiful, magical realm infront of the Rohan court infront of Wormtongue especially, was he losing his wits?! The bearers of the Three were meant to be secret & yet he was publicly glorifying Galadriel & her elven ring!

Well, I think you should be a real Sherlock to figure from "White is the star in your white hand" that one of the three is in Lothlórien. In fact, I'm not even sure if it really refers to the ring, but instead being a metaphor for something else.

Edit: Crossposted with Lindolirian. You made a good point about Sam.

[Lindolirian]

In Dwimordene, in Lorien
Seldom have walked the feet of Men,
Few mortal eyes have seen the light
That lies there ever long and bright.
Galadriel! Galadriel!
Clear is the water of your well;
White is the star in your white hand;
Unmarred, unstained is leaf and land
In Dwimordene, in Lorien
More fair than thoughts of Mortal Men

I can see where it seems that Gandalf mentions Nenya, but you have to remember, only such things are evident to those who bear a Ring of Power themselves. Sam was present when Lady Galadriel showed her Ring to Frodo, but since is is not a Ring-Bearer all he saw was a white star in her white hand. Gandalf must have seen no harm in putting out what many would have thought to be a metaphor for power.

*Edit* Crosspost with Eyrie: Good points... hahaha, it seems we agree.

[Farael]

But then, should Sauron hear those verses he might be able to guess where one of the Three is at. Yet Sauron might have know already, I think I recall Galadriel saying that the enemy tried to look into her lands but he could not... perhaps Sauron knew there was a ring in there?

I'm not too sure if white is the star in your white hand is a metaphor for power... English is my second language so it might just be, but it did not bring up thoughts of power to me. But then, my LoTR is in Spanish and I do not pay much attention to songs and poetry in the book because they are ill translated.

Also, if Frodo could see the rings, why didn't he see Gandalf's? just a bit of a side thought that popped up into my head.

[Lindolirian]

I took that star to be a metaphor for power in that stars are inherently "elvish" representing their power to make and sustain beauty. The next phrase in the poem speaks of how the land remains unmarred and unstained. I didn't mean that her Ring represented military might, but a power of protection of a secret place and its beauty.
Now as for Frodo not being able to see Narya, I suppose it might be because Gandalf never came out and showed it to him as Galadriel did.

[Formendacil]

I highly doubt if Sauron would have been surprised to find a Ring in Lothlorien. The same goes for Rivendell. Both realms had a supernatural aura and were ruled by mighty, powerful Elves who had been around in Celebrimbor's time. It was probably only Gandalf's Ring that was truly hidden from Sauron.

[Farael]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't one (or two even) of the Three make Sauron even more powerful? I do agree (even though I had not thought of it before until it was mentioned here) that he knew there was a Ring in Rivendell and another in Lorien. I don't know exactly how strong both cities were, but why didn't he attack them and recover at least two of the three? then he'd be even mightyer and he might have been able to crush Gondor in spite of Aragorn and Gandalf's best efforts.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Farael

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't one (or two even) of the Three make Sauron even more powerful? I do agree (even though I had not thought of it before until it was mentioned here) that he knew there was a Ring in Rivendell and another in Lorien. I don't know exactly how strong both cities were, but why didn't he attack them and recover at least two of the three? then he'd be even mightyer and he might have been able to crush Gondor in spite of Aragorn and Gandalf's best efforts.

Having these rings wouldn't have benefited Sauron directly; his purpose for them was to enslave the Elves who wore them, but that didn't go according to plan. The powers of the Three were nothing Sauron would really have had any use for, and he probably wouldn't have been able to use them since these were Elven creations. On the other hand, if Sauron had them, nobody else would. I have a feeling that this is the reason he went about collecting all the rings besides the nine: his original purpose for them had failed and they were granting their bearers powers he would rather they didn't have.

[Farael]

I see... for some reason I thought that Sauron could wear the rings and it'd have somewhat of a cummulative effect. Perhaps not the three for they were not made for warfare and so Sauron wouldn't have used them much... but maybe the Nine and the seven? it'd be a really heavy hand to lift with all those rings on but if they do have a cummulative effect.....

[tar-ancalime]

I don't know exactly how strong both cities were, but why didn't he attack them and recover at least two of the three?

It has always been my understanding that it was the power of the Rings that kept Rivendell and Lorien safe. Neither could have withstood a determined onslaught (as is pointed out at the Council when it is suggested that the One Ring be kept "safe" in Rivendell), but with the Rings' protection both could have resisted for long enough to draw Sauron's resources away from any other battle he wished to fight. It wouldn't have been in his best interest to attack Rivendell or Lorien (thus facing the power that, as Formendacil points out, he surely knew was there) without his One Ring.

Regaining the One had to be his focus.

Could it be that the reason why Elrond and Galadriel talked about the fading of the Three if Sauron should regain the One was that with the One he'd be better equipped to attack them? Perhaps the power of the Three would not be diminished at all, but Sauron's power would be so increased that he could attack them with relative impunity.

I agree that the locations of at least Nenya and Vilya were at best open secrets, at least among those who cared to study such things. I would imagine also that Sauron had a pretty good idea of Narya's whereabouts--even if he first assumed it was with Cirdan in the Havens, his second guess would be likely correct, as there were not so many very powerful figures opposing him.

I remember reading in the Return of the King, that a power dwelt in Lothlorien that Sauron could not overcome unless he himself were to go there. I assume that that power is Nenya on the hand of Galadriel. So the Three Rings had a power of 'holiness' or preservation. The opposite of Sauron which is to destroy.

I think that the reason the One Ring was not hidden in either Rivendell or Lothlorien is answered by Elrond, "they would become islands under siege". Islands under siege explains that all else would be cut off from them; the water, the air, and such. Eventually they would be without the elements and die.

My difficulty lies in Narya. If Vilya and Nenya both prove to be very powerful in protecting realms, what realm does Narya protect? It seems as if it is a traveling realm. Also, if the Three Rings magnify the powers of the users, wouldn't Gandalf's powers be magnified? Or was Narya simply given to Gandalf to be kept safe? Anthony

[obloquy]

I don't know if the power to protect a 'realm' was an inherent effect of the Three so much as an enhancing of the will of their keepers. Elrond's duty as master of his house was to protect it from evil, and his ring complemented that effort; likewise for Galadriel. Narya may have had a similar effect while in Cirdan's possession. However, Tolkien tells us somewhere that Narya's power was in motivating hearts and inciting action. But he also tells us that that was Olorin's specialty back in Aman, which suggests that the actual power of one of the Three depended even more strictly on the intentions of its bearer.

[drigel]

It seemed to me that the decsription:

"...for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world"

from the Silm. clearly describes the ring's power, and mabye some of the nature of the ring makers (hence their intentions), but not the wielder.

It also seems to me that Sauron could greatly benefit from the use of those attributes. Wielding one (or more) of the Elvish rings would (IMO) enhance the durability, or resilience of what was wrought by him when he wore his Ring. If he had one of the three, he might also discover who was again wielding the other two.

IMO, if Sauron was able to regain the one ring, the point would be moot ( ). No need for the three.

[obloquy]

Actually your quote doesn't provide any insight into the nature of the power of the Three. It simply says what a bearer of one of these rings could achieve. The quote may as well say "...if they so choose." If Sauron sought these rings for the power they possessed*, it wasn't because he wanted to preserve something from the decay of time. He didn't need the durability of anything enhanced since it was all invincible anyway, as long as the One Ring was in existence. Besides, the quote doesn't say anything about a general durability enhancement, it talks about a holy power of preservation. This was the will of their maker, as well as the will of the bearers of Vilya and Nenya. The quote doesn't single those two rings out, however, so we can assume it applies to Narya as well, yet Narya was not used for that purpose. It was used to ignite hearts, which also happened to be Olorin's particular gift: this indicates that the powers of the Three were subject to the will of their bearers.

*Actually, I think it's more likely that he sought the Three just to deprive his enemies of them.

Edit: Oh, and "the point would be moot."

[drigel]

egads thats what i get when im posting when im supposed to be working

It simply says what a bearer of one of these rings could achieve. The quote may as well say "...if they so choose."

but it doesnt - is my point. ex: - the quote could also say ".. also can fry bacon"...

I suppose this isn't the thread to discuss the nature of the three. It is a subject that has a lot of generalities and is open to different interpretations. I would suggest that S could and would have a use for any of the three if he had obtained one. Just like the Palantri, he didnt really need one, but it did come in handy - but, the Eye was already in play before he obtained one.

I was just thinking that the biggest threat to empire is precisely the "decays of time", and the "weariness" of the energy that it took to maintain said empire, especially after loosing the One. An "unholy" power of preservation in the physical plane.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by drigel

but it doesnt - is my point. ex: - the quote could also say ".. also can fry bacon"...

Useless argument. The fact remains that your quote doesn't represent an exclusive nature of the Three, since it includes all of them and yet Narya was not used for the purpose described. Narya augmented Gandalf's natural propensity for reaching individuals' hearts and motivating them. It's therefore logical to assume that when Vilya and Nenya were used for protecting a realm, they were merely complementing their masters' will to do so. Unless you'd like to postulate the theory that the piece you snipped was only referring to Vilya and Nenya, and that those two had the same power while Narya had a different purpose altogether. If that's your theory, I'd like a little meatier an argument to support it.

I suppose this isn't the thread to discuss the nature of the three. It is a subject that has a lot of generalities and is open to different interpretations.

Seems as good a place as any.

I would suggest that S could and would have a use for any of the three if he had obtained one.

If you're correct about the Three, the only use he could have found for them was to protect a realm from the decay of time. He didn't need anything to do that, as I've already said, since Sauron's world was a desolate and dead one anyway, and those things he created were already indestructible as long as the Ring existed, and it itself was all but indestructible. The Elven rings wouldn't have offered him anything, except that if he came into possession of one of them, the other two would be rendered useless since they could not be worn.

Just like the Palantri, he didnt really need one, but it did come in handy - but, the Eye was already in play before he obtained one.

He didn't use the Palantir to see great distances, he used it to break and control Saruman who was initially his chief adversary. I think the need vs. handy argument is pretty flaccid considering what he achieved with it, even though he may not have had the item on his pre-world domination checklist.

I was just thinking that the biggest threat to empire is precisely the "decays of time", and the "weariness" of the energy that it took to maintain said empire, especially after loosing the One. An "unholy" power of preservation in the physical plane.

Sauron did not need anything preserved. His kingdom was one of death and decay and his actual throne was impervious to any destructive force as long as its anchor avoided Mt. Doom's fire.

[drigel]

nice thoughts, obloquy!

If that's your theory, I'd like a little meatier an argument to support it.

well I did make a bacon reference didnt I? ok here goes:

I am taking a point of view of what was actually described from the works, not conjecture. The quote I referenced pertains to the three elvish ring's description, not the wielder's. Granted, there is not a lot of actual descriptive narration on the subject, other than air, fire and water, and the descriptions of what the by-product of what wielding them (results) was. Other than (a key factor IMO):

Galadriel to Frodo FotR:

Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others.

It seems as if your supposition is that Galadriel and Elrond have some sort of native "force field" abilities, and the rings are only there to augment what they already can produce. I would generally disagree with that. I would like to see some meat from that argument, actually. I would submit that Galadriel probably had obtained some skill in that particular art from the tutelage of Melian, but I wouldnt go on and conclude that she could have produced any barrier protection super power herself. But with a ring of power - yes.

Back to the Galadriel quote. I now contemplate a Maia wielding an elvish ring of power. A ring that was constucted in part or mostly from the skills that same Maia taught to the ring maker. He never touched them, so there is a possibility that their powers could not be tapped into by him. But I lean heavily to the chance that they would.

and those things he created were already indestructible as long as the Ring existed, and it itself was all but indestructible

Ill give you Barad Dur, but the foundations were the only thing that either were not, or could not be destroyed. You need to give me something from the works that supplements that idea. Many of his fortifications by that time were Numenorian built. I was, in addition to the physical protection from decay, thinking of a Mordor (or Greater Mordor) that had the protective barrier of Lorien. Or, Sauron wielding the ring of fire... I would imagine the masses already under his control raised to the power of berserker level. Or, perhaps the added ability to control spirits of fire (Balrogs), possibly dragons. Mabye not, but if one takes the position that the rings could be used by S., then those would be the possiblities. I admit the primary reason to obtain one of the three would be to discover the other wielders but, (1)- the wielders were of the Wise, so they would take them off immediately (might be too late at that point), and (2)- the traitor Saruman knew who the wielders were (possible exception being the knowledge that Cirdan gave Gandalf Narya). And if Saruman knew that - I would think that Sauron by that time knew as well.

He didn't use the Palantir to see great distances, he used it to break and control Saruman who was initially his chief adversary.

I agree with the latter (and include Denethor), but as to the former, its a matter of opinion, as the texts do not say anything one way or the other. I would submit that the Eye was greatly enhanced by its use.

Sauron did not need anything preserved.

Why? He had empire concerns that any emperor had. Not all of his physical might was orcs and trolls.

Have to work now. Will check in later. Thanks for the Tolkien stimulation though!