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10-07-2003, 11:42 PM | #1 |
Animated Skeleton
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Ulmo
I have recently begun re-reading the unfinished tales, adn coupled withmy UT and LOTR, along with the Silmarillion, I have come to realize three major points:
Eru Lluvatar closely instructed Ulmo in the art of singing before the beginning of the world, giving him more power and foresight than even Manwe. Ulmo has power over all the waters of the world [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] , what a shock, and therefore able to "control" and perceive many of the movements in the world and his knowledge was deep, aiding his foresight, may I say a rival to Manwe's eagles. Although he did remove himself to the outer waters, he was still able to have impact on the movements if the world in the second age. In the second and third ages, Ulmo was the most loyal vala to the plights of men and elves, aiding them in their quests, from tuor to , may I bravely state Aragorn with the favorable conditions for the ship trek and giving news to Faramir of Boromir (yes, perhaps a stretch) Because of these realizations, I see Ulmo as the vala most true to his original intention, to protect Middle Earth and the like. If any of you have any ideas, just tell me, this is completely open, so any ideas on Ulmo are desired. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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10-08-2003, 01:51 AM | #2 |
Essence of Darkness
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That's a fairly comprehensive summary of this god, yes. In fact I've not really got anything more to add =).
Enjoy the site, hope you stick around. |
10-08-2003, 09:49 AM | #3 |
Animated Skeleton
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Thanks, well, actually I have been a member for quite a while, but decided to change user names because when I changed computers, I lost my old password. Hopefully we can spark some discussion with this topic. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
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10-08-2003, 04:41 PM | #4 | ||||||||
A Northern Soul
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Here are some of the passages that led me to the above conclusions. From The Silmarillion: Quote:
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[ October 08, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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10-08-2003, 05:40 PM | #5 | |||||
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Yes, thy were in the first age, sorry, brain fart. Anyway, you do raise some interesting points on this subject, but
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10-09-2003, 02:22 AM | #6 | |||
Essence of Darkness
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Hmm, Legolas is right. I hadn't noticed that; Ulmo was by no means more powerful than Manwe, although he can be said to have followed 'Illuvatar's purpose' rather better, for the First Age, in that he never forsook the people of Middle-Earth as did Valinor.
But then remember, Secret Fire, that they all had their part to play in the events of the world. This sort of concept is one that I stand by, and thus I would not say at all that Manwe was somewhat distanced from Eru's designs in this period. Ulmo's job here was to provide a means of not closing Middle-Earth to the Valar completely, but think of Manwe as well. Manwe had the strongest link to Illuvatar, and understood the most of his purposes, out of all the Ainur. In terms of power he was said to be mightiest -- apart from Melkor, for Quote:
But Manwe is the closest to Illuvatar, a concept that is there from the beginning of the Valar's conception by Tolkien. With him in this is Ulmo, to repeat Legolas's quote Quote:
From the Lost Tales there is a valuable passage (Book one provides much insight into the Valar that was largely never lost, although omitted). It goes something like this. Quote:
I probably should have made this post before instead of welcoming you, eh, especially if you've already been welcomed a time ago [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But there you are. That seems like the way it is. [ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ] |
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10-09-2003, 05:19 AM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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It seems to me that Gwaihir has just posted a masterpiece!
That is how i percieved the two exactly. Sadly i'd say that ends the Manwe-Ulmo part of this discussion. Veering slightly off the Vala themselves, lets discuss what parts (if any) they may have played in bringing about the outcome of the War or the Ring. Was Ulmo responsible for Boromirs boat reaching Faramir? Was Manwe responsible for the eagles timely arrival in front of the Black Gate? Why were the winds and waters favourable to Aragorn and the captured black fleet? Were Manwe and Ulmo directly responsible? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, Osse
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10-09-2003, 10:52 AM | #8 |
Deathless Sun
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I don't think that any of the Valar were directly responsible for any of the events in Middle-earth, but they could have guided the characters to act in certain ways. The same "force" that enabled Bilbo to find the Ring, and Frodo to inherit it, could have also sent Boromir's boat to Faramir and enable the Grey Company to travel with the speed that it did. That "force" is purposefully left vague to make readers wonder whether or not the Valar truly "let go" of Middle-earth when they gave up their Guardianship.
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10-10-2003, 05:04 AM | #9 |
Essence of Darkness
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You're welcome if you did find it enlightening in any way [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], Osse. In reply to your post, I should say that the Valar may well have been responsible for these things and others. As Finwe says, they seem to have still guided Middle-Earth after their land was removed from the phyiscal dimension.
What about the Istari? And remember the Eagles. |
10-10-2003, 07:30 AM | #10 |
Wight
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I do not have the books on me at present but I believe that in one of his letters Tolkien refers to the fact that there may have been at least one action by the Valar in the LOTR. Strangely in this letter he does not mention the seemingly more obvious things like the Ring being found by Bilbo or the Eagles rescuing Frodo and Sam from the destruction of Mount Doom. In fact, the incident that Tolkien mentions is one that he felt could have come from Ulmo and so is relevant to this thread.
When Frodo and Sam enter Mordor there is a moment when a stream of water, pure and unsullied, runs down to them allowing them to replenish their supplies. From the content of this letter it would seem that Tolkien felt this was a very subtle intervention from Ulmo.
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10-10-2003, 08:41 AM | #11 |
Hungry Ghoul
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You might or might not be interested in Ulmo and the Ring War.
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10-10-2003, 08:57 AM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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eurytus has laid out what has always been my thesis on Ulmo (like legolas - he is my favorite vala). Although i too agree with gwaihir - in the hierarchy of the Vala, Ulmo is where he is - he has his ranking and his areas of responsibilities - and JRRT has structurally laid this out. But I feel that Ulmo represents JRRT's sentiments, if that makes sense.
Indirect divine intervention - primarily through the use of symbology . If you have that frame of mind you can see it throughout LOTR. The sea, the Great River, Sam and Frodo in Mordor, the Phial... etc. I just see it as JRRT's way of putting it out there, via Ulmo and his devices, that the Vala, by the 3rd age, were still concerned in the affairs of the goodly peoples of ME, and (wink wink) had many other activities in ME other than sending the Istari, that (although debatable)had only 1 major player out of the 5 they sent. |
10-10-2003, 02:22 PM | #13 |
Animated Skeleton
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Some very good points. Ulmo, to me is very similar to Mithrandir, also on many points, however. Ulmo did not give up on ME, nor did he forsake the noldor after their rejection of the Valar. Only he, Manwe, and Varda still had love for the errant children of Lluvatar because their foresight ran deeper, but Ulmo, alone, was sadder at the flight of the Noldor than at rthe kinslaying because his knowledge ran deeper. Anyway, he is more similar to Mithrandir because although he hadgreat power, he kept mostly to himself and desired neither praise nor superiority but quietly moved his designs foreward. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
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10-10-2003, 03:19 PM | #14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Mithrander/Ulmo - never thought of that! Nice parallels. 2 different sides of the creator's face...
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10-11-2003, 02:36 AM | #15 |
Essence of Darkness
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Interesting observation.
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10-13-2003, 01:26 PM | #16 |
Animated Skeleton
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Thankyou.
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10-13-2003, 03:54 PM | #17 | ||
Wight
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In "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" in the Unfinished Tales Ulmo says the following to Tuor regarding his role in the affairs of Middle-earth and his relationship to the other Valar
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More generally though, it seems to me that Tolkien presents all the Valar (including Melkor) as being distinct but indespensable parts needed to fulfill Eru's design for the world. In looking at it this way, it's kind of like asking "which of the Valar is more essential?" when they are all necessary. Ulmo's words to Tuor underscore this. Another example (?) of Ulmo's influence is perhaps the finding of the Ring by Déagol. Note that the Ring was lost in a river, and that very close to the time the Ring was actually found, if not before, both Saruman and Sauron were looking for it in the same location. But fortuitously it ended up in the hands of the one race of creatures who could keep it safe without attracting anyone's attention. [ October 13, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ] [ October 13, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ] |
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10-13-2003, 08:52 PM | #18 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I had always thought that it was Saurons will that had stirred the ring, both his and Saruman's forces were searching for it in the area, Sauron's will was bent on finding it and the ring wished to be found, it was just 'luck' or 'fate' that caused Deagal to find it. Of course, Ulmo may have had influence on where the good fishing spot was etc. so that the two friends fished in the right spot. Does Ulmo have sway over the animals that inhabit water? Because if so he could have made sure that the fish dragged Deagol into the water.
An interesting possibility! Osse
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10-13-2003, 09:27 PM | #19 |
Animated Skeleton
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That is a possibility. However, Ulmo does state that the "seas" on the earth are but a splash compared to the vastness of his seas of vai, but they were the only ones thick enough for the inhabitants of Middle Earth to float in and that only he, the ainur and his creatures whom he had spoken the word given to him by Lluvatar before the making of the world could inhabit. Thed ring being found could be affected by many workings of Ulmo, he could have created the correct conditions for it to be found, moved it with his currents, or whatever else he deemed necessary to make sure it was kept out of the hands of evil. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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10-14-2003, 10:30 PM | #20 |
Wight
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I looked up the chronology again [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The conjectured date of Deagol finding the One Ring, TA 2463, is three years after Sauron's return to Dol Guldor, ending the Watchful Peace. Also, it is the same year that the White Council was formed, with Saruman as its head. Probably by this time Saruman had begun his study of the Rings of Power. Given all this, it was virtually assured that the One Ring was going to be found, and sooner rather than later. So actually there was a very narrow window of opportunity for the Ring to be spirited away before it fell into either set of the wrong hands. So Ulmo may have "arranged" for someone else to find it first.
Very fortuitous...for everyone except poor Deagol [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [ October 15, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ] |
02-16-2004, 11:57 PM | #21 |
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A very good point Troll. Also Ulmo has to have been teh way that the Elves were allowed to return to Valinor. The finding of the ring, however, may have been more in Osse's territory that in Ulmo's as Ulmo had given the rule of the rivers unto him.
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