The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

07-12-2005, 01:24 PM

I wondered whether Eru gave the Istari a choice of free will to do and command as they wished, or were they directly under his command? If so, why was Saruman then overcome by desire to control the power of the One Ring, if he was originally sent to oppose those who harness it? I thought the Istari were meant to show through the power of Eru to some extent, but not in designs of war, but over commanding the will of the free people of the world against Sauron.

So if Eru's greatest servants also can be corrupted by the Ring, was the Treason of Isengard already planned by Eru, or does he have no direct influence on the fate of ME? Sending Gandalf alone would surely have been of greater benefit to ME than Saruman also, that is, unless Eru was not aware of what evils the Istari may turn to thereafter.

davem · 07-12-2005, 01:44 PM

I think Eru would have been aware of what Saruman would do - but that He didn't plan it. In Middle-earth there is free will but there are also consequences of free will. Saruman chose freely his road & brought his doom on himself. Eru knew everything that would happen - including when & how He would intervene personally, but to control everything all the time would have made the creation pointless - why not simply sit there in eternity & daydream?

Eru creates because it is His nature to create - He creates free creatures because that is the height of the Creator's art. for Him to have planned Saruman's treason means that he also planned his fate - which would either make Saruman little more than a robot, or worse, a victim, forced against his will to act in a way that was against his nature with no means to avoid the consequences.

Folwren · 07-12-2005, 02:33 PM

Well...this is a whole question of 'is there free will or not?' then, isn't it? And as I've never been able to answer that question here in real life, I can't very well answer it for Middle Earth. I think that Eru is Tolkien's character for God, and so that whoever thinks that there is free will here on Earth will think that there is free will in Middle Earth, and those that believe God handles everything and no one has any free will here, will think the same for there.

So, unless it says otherwise, somewhere in the many histories of that world, I don't know if there is a real answer to this question...just a matter of opinion.

I have no answer.

burrahobbit · 07-12-2005, 03:11 PM

Nobody is under Eru's "command," but they all do what He "wants."

mormegil · 07-12-2005, 03:47 PM

Free will is an interesting arguement and correct me if I'm wrong Mansun but it seems to me that you are in essence asking more about the relation of predestination and free will. Being that Eru is omnipotent the roles of everybody could be predestined could they not? However this goes against free will. I am of the opinion that an omnipotent being Eru (in Tolkien's world) or God knows exactly what every individual will do under a given set of circumstances. Does this take away from that individual's free will? No, it most definately doesn't.

The Istari were given certain roles to perform and they have their agency to decide what to do and what temptations to give into. Eru would know how Sauruman would act under certain conditions but he would not prohibit his errant ways even though they were against his initial charge to the Istari. I like to think of it foreordiantion as opposed to predestination. Before they came to Middle-earth the Istari were given certain roles to fulfill, they have their agency to choose how to fulfill them. They can either succeed or fail. Each is a distinct possibility, otherwise there is no true free agency.

Gurthang · 07-13-2005, 09:55 AM

You might find this interesting.

For those of you who don't want to read it, or don't have the time, this discussion of predestination versus free will was brought up. I quoted the Silmarillion where Iluvatar tells the Valar that no theme can be played but his and that even if they tried to go against His will, they would only become his instruments for things more beautiful. I pointed to that as saying that Eru predestined everything.

But later, davem pointed out another quote that said that Men could shape their own lives apart from the Music. So it seems that Iluvatar has made a plan that everyone must follow, except men, who can do their own thing.

So what about Saruman. Perhaps, in the form of a man, he was able to choose for himself what he really wanted. He chose away from what Eru desired for him, and almost ruined all hope.

Yet you could make a case that Saruman's treachery was also part of the plan, and only 'made things more beautiful'. If he had not pushed against Theoden, then perhaps Rohan never would have come to Gondor's aid. So, indirectly, Saruman caused the winning of the battle before Minas Tirith, and incidently the victory over Sauron. But maybe that's stretching it.

mormegil · 07-13-2005, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Nobody is under Eru's "command," but they all do what He "wants."

Explain please. Because it makes it seem that Eru wanted Melkor to become evil, Eru wanted the Kin-slaying to occur, Eru wanted Saruman to be treacherous, etc...

burrahobbit · 07-13-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mormegil

Explain please. Because it makes it seem that Eru wanted Melkor to become evil, Eru wanted the Kin-slaying to occur, Eru wanted Saruman to be treacherous, etc...

Basically. It worked out for the best, didn't it? I mean, snow is pretty cool. And clouds, I like those.

07-12-2005, 01:24 PM	#1
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan? I wondered whether Eru gave the Istari a choice of free will to do and command as they wished, or were they directly under his command? If so, why was Saruman then overcome by desire to control the power of the One Ring, if he was originally sent to oppose those who harness it? I thought the Istari were meant to show through the power of Eru to some extent, but not in designs of war, but over commanding the will of the free people of the world against Sauron. So if Eru's greatest servants also can be corrupted by the Ring, was the Treason of Isengard already planned by Eru, or does he have no direct influence on the fate of ME? Sending Gandalf alone would surely have been of greater benefit to ME than Saruman also, that is, unless Eru was not aware of what evils the Istari may turn to thereafter. Last edited by Mansun; 08-20-2006 at 02:21 PM.

07-12-2005, 01:44 PM	#2
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I think Eru would have been aware of what Saruman would do - but that He didn't plan it. In Middle-earth there is free will but there are also consequences of free will. Saruman chose freely his road & brought his doom on himself. Eru knew everything that would happen - including when & how He would intervene personally, but to control everything all the time would have made the creation pointless - why not simply sit there in eternity & daydream? Eru creates because it is His nature to create - He creates free creatures because that is the height of the Creator's art. for Him to have planned Saruman's treason means that he also planned his fate - which would either make Saruman little more than a robot, or worse, a victim, forced against his will to act in a way that was against his nature with no means to avoid the consequences. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

07-12-2005, 02:33 PM	#3
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Well...this is a whole question of 'is there free will or not?' then, isn't it? And as I've never been able to answer that question here in real life, I can't very well answer it for Middle Earth. I think that Eru is Tolkien's character for God, and so that whoever thinks that there is free will here on Earth will think that there is free will in Middle Earth, and those that believe God handles everything and no one has any free will here, will think the same for there. So, unless it says otherwise, somewhere in the many histories of that world, I don't know if there is a real answer to this question...just a matter of opinion. I have no answer. __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

07-12-2005, 03:11 PM	#4
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Nobody is under Eru's "command," but they all do what He "wants." __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

07-12-2005, 03:47 PM	#5
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	Free will is an interesting arguement and correct me if I'm wrong Mansun but it seems to me that you are in essence asking more about the relation of predestination and free will. Being that Eru is omnipotent the roles of everybody could be predestined could they not? However this goes against free will. I am of the opinion that an omnipotent being Eru (in Tolkien's world) or God knows exactly what every individual will do under a given set of circumstances. Does this take away from that individual's free will? No, it most definately doesn't. The Istari were given certain roles to perform and they have their agency to decide what to do and what temptations to give into. Eru would know how Sauruman would act under certain conditions but he would not prohibit his errant ways even though they were against his initial charge to the Istari. I like to think of it foreordiantion as opposed to predestination. Before they came to Middle-earth the Istari were given certain roles to fulfill, they have their agency to choose how to fulfill them. They can either succeed or fail. Each is a distinct possibility, otherwise there is no true free agency. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

07-13-2005, 09:55 AM	#6
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	You might find this interesting. For those of you who don't want to read it, or don't have the time, this discussion of predestination versus free will was brought up. I quoted the Silmarillion where Iluvatar tells the Valar that no theme can be played but his and that even if they tried to go against His will, they would only become his instruments for things more beautiful. I pointed to that as saying that Eru predestined everything. But later, davem pointed out another quote that said that Men could shape their own lives apart from the Music. So it seems that Iluvatar has made a plan that everyone must follow, except men, who can do their own thing. So what about Saruman. Perhaps, in the form of a man, he was able to choose for himself what he really wanted. He chose away from what Eru desired for him, and almost ruined all hope. Yet you could make a case that Saruman's treachery was also part of the plan, and only 'made things more beautiful'. If he had not pushed against Theoden, then perhaps Rohan never would have come to Gondor's aid. So, indirectly, Saruman caused the winning of the battle before Minas Tirith, and incidently the victory over Sauron. But maybe that's stretching it. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.