The Power of the Ainur - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Curulin · 11-22-2002, 05:05 PM

In many places in the Silmarillion there are references to the power of the Valar and the Maiar? but what exactly was this power?
It says that the Valar were able to throw down or rebuild mountains, bend the seas, etc, but what enabled them to do so?
Also, if two ainur (such as Gandlaf and Saruman, or Manwe and Morgoth) were to fight, what would this be like? There's mention of the Dagor Dagorath in the Unfinnished tales, but im curious as to what this would be like? In the FotR film, Gandalf and Saruman fought, but was this simple Peter Jackson's interpretation, or an accurate dipiction that was taken from the books?
In short, how did the power of the Ainur manifest itself. Was it just in mind, would they have to clothe themselves in bodies, or a bit of both? I'm not sure if there are any specific references in the books, but id be delighted to be told there are, or at least discuss the different theories...
thanks, Curulin

burrahobbit · 11-22-2002, 05:38 PM

That's a very good question. They certainly wouldn't need to take on a body to do their thing, but aside from that I don't have any concrete answers. I would imagine the fighting to be in some sort of European style, but aside from that I couldn't say. That first battle was before the Elves were around, so we really don't know much about it. Similarly, you could ask how the Ents moved that river. We know that they did, but I don't quite know how. Tulkas et al fought Morgoth, but I don't quite know how. I have absolutely know idea how two wizards would actually fight. Maybe with swords. Like how Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader fight on the Death Star, all slow and talky.

Galorme · 11-22-2002, 05:49 PM

Have you ever watched Dragon Ball Z? I expect it would be something like that. The only real evidence for this is that the ground was destroyed and the world was rent usunder and all. They dont need their bodies thats true, but i expect they would use them, if only to concentrate their power. I like the idea of a fight like from Star Wars. I expect it would be a cross between the two. This, incidently, would make a great Fan-Fic.

Aule · 11-22-2002, 07:33 PM

Burrahobbit could you please explain what you mean by some European style of fighting.

Westerly Wizard · 11-22-2002, 07:39 PM

For two ainur figthing, there is the fight between Durin's Bane and Gandalf.

Mhoram · 11-22-2002, 11:39 PM

Quote:

There's mention of the Dagor Dagorath in the Unfinnished tales, but im curious as to what this would be like? In the FotR film, Gandalf and Saruman fought, but was this simple Peter Jackson's interpretation, or an accurate dipiction that was taken from the books?

Havn't you read the books?

On a related note, that part with Gandalf spinning on the floor by his head was the lamest thing I have ever seen.

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

burrahobbit · 11-23-2002, 12:03 AM

I said it that way to distinguish it from a more martial arts style, like Dragon Ball Z (sic). Dragon Ball Z was actually something that I was thinking about when I typed, but without all of the flying and fire-balls.

Curulin · 11-23-2002, 03:53 AM

Hmm, im not sure about the martial arts style either, or swords for that matter. Somehow weapons seem sort of below the Ainur. Personally, i think it would be more of a battle of minds or wills, similar to what they did in the film, but i agree, the spinning thing was slightly questionable. And yes Mhoram, ive read all the books, but not the HoME series, so i thought it quite possible that something would be in there about this. I'd love to know what Tolkien himself invisioned, and especially what he thought or wrote about the Dagor Dagorath...

Mhoram · 11-23-2002, 04:00 AM

No, Tolkien never even suggested there was a fight between Gandalf and Saruman.

Galorme · 11-23-2002, 04:05 AM

You know something, I think i have turned 180 degrees while reading this post. I believe that what happened between Gandalf and Saruman at the seige in TTT. Gandalf walks up and tries to barter with Saruman. When he sees its not going to work he says "Your staff is broken" and Bam, Saruman is defeated. Totally. It was an instantanious thing, and after Olorin was a fully functioning spirit and Saruman was broken (sorry cant remember Saruman's Maia name). I think that, between pure Ainur that is what would happen. But there are exceptions I think, such as, with the Balrogs, the Spirit has trapped itself in the body it has made for itself, and all its power is concentrated there. Then i Stand by my DBZ (What do you mean Sic? Whats wrong with my spelling?) theory.

burrahobbit · 11-23-2002, 04:11 AM

The sic was at DBZ's marvelous depiction of the martial arts. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Galorme · 11-23-2002, 04:30 AM

Ah yes. You have to love Japanamation. My younger brother is a big fan of the Series, which I dont really understand since most of it consists of people staring at each other going "ARGHHHHHHAHHHH!" for hours.

Anyway I was thinking (again), maybe the Ainur would take on bodies to fight so that they could actually have a chance of doing some harm. But that would require a sense of honor, not to revert to un-incarnate form and destroy the other's body. Do Melkor's servants have a sense of Honor? Is the idea of a fair fight shown anywhere amongst the Balrogs or Maia under his command?

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

Curulin · 11-23-2002, 04:37 AM

Not really to my mind. An example could be the way Wolf-Sauron turns into a snake when he is being beaten by Huan, in order to try and escape. It doesn't work, but he still tried to cheat his way out sort of... I wouldn't say that any of Morgoth's servants had any honour, and especially the higher up the chain you go; the Maia under his dominion probably had even less honour than the orcs and beasts.

Yeah, thats a good point about Gandalf breaking saruman's staff. It just sort of happened, as if Gandalf willed it to with his mind, or he knew that was what was going to happen... Are there any similar situations in the HoME series? Sorry, i have a sort of Ainur fixation...

11-22-2002, 05:05 PM	#1
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	The Power of the Ainur In many places in the Silmarillion there are references to the power of the Valar and the Maiar? but what exactly was this power? It says that the Valar were able to throw down or rebuild mountains, bend the seas, etc, but what enabled them to do so? Also, if two ainur (such as Gandlaf and Saruman, or Manwe and Morgoth) were to fight, what would this be like? There's mention of the Dagor Dagorath in the Unfinnished tales, but im curious as to what this would be like? In the FotR film, Gandalf and Saruman fought, but was this simple Peter Jackson's interpretation, or an accurate dipiction that was taken from the books? In short, how did the power of the Ainur manifest itself. Was it just in mind, would they have to clothe themselves in bodies, or a bit of both? I'm not sure if there are any specific references in the books, but id be delighted to be told there are, or at least discuss the different theories... thanks, Curulin __________________ Well, I'm back.

11-22-2002, 05:38 PM	#2
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	That's a very good question. They certainly wouldn't need to take on a body to do their thing, but aside from that I don't have any concrete answers. I would imagine the fighting to be in some sort of European style, but aside from that I couldn't say. That first battle was before the Elves were around, so we really don't know much about it. Similarly, you could ask how the Ents moved that river. We know that they did, but I don't quite know how. Tulkas et al fought Morgoth, but I don't quite know how. I have absolutely know idea how two wizards would actually fight. Maybe with swords. Like how Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader fight on the Death Star, all slow and talky. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

11-22-2002, 05:49 PM	#3
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Have you ever watched Dragon Ball Z? I expect it would be something like that. The only real evidence for this is that the ground was destroyed and the world was rent usunder and all. They dont need their bodies thats true, but i expect they would use them, if only to concentrate their power. I like the idea of a fight like from Star Wars. I expect it would be a cross between the two. This, incidently, would make a great Fan-Fic. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

11-22-2002, 07:33 PM	#4
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	Burrahobbit could you please explain what you mean by some European style of fighting. __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall

11-22-2002, 07:39 PM	#5
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	For two ainur figthing, there is the fight between Durin's Bane and Gandalf. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

11-23-2002, 12:03 AM	#7
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	I said it that way to distinguish it from a more martial arts style, like Dragon Ball Z (sic). Dragon Ball Z was actually something that I was thinking about when I typed, but without all of the flying and fire-balls. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

11-23-2002, 03:53 AM	#8
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	Hmm, im not sure about the martial arts style either, or swords for that matter. Somehow weapons seem sort of below the Ainur. Personally, i think it would be more of a battle of minds or wills, similar to what they did in the film, but i agree, the spinning thing was slightly questionable. And yes Mhoram, ive read all the books, but not the HoME series, so i thought it quite possible that something would be in there about this. I'd love to know what Tolkien himself invisioned, and especially what he thought or wrote about the Dagor Dagorath... __________________ Well, I'm back.

11-23-2002, 04:00 AM	#9
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	No, Tolkien never even suggested there was a fight between Gandalf and Saruman.

11-23-2002, 04:05 AM	#10
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	You know something, I think i have turned 180 degrees while reading this post. I believe that what happened between Gandalf and Saruman at the seige in TTT. Gandalf walks up and tries to barter with Saruman. When he sees its not going to work he says "Your staff is broken" and Bam, Saruman is defeated. Totally. It was an instantanious thing, and after Olorin was a fully functioning spirit and Saruman was broken (sorry cant remember Saruman's Maia name). I think that, between pure Ainur that is what would happen. But there are exceptions I think, such as, with the Balrogs, the Spirit has trapped itself in the body it has made for itself, and all its power is concentrated there. Then i Stand by my DBZ (What do you mean Sic? Whats wrong with my spelling?) theory. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

11-23-2002, 04:11 AM	#11
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	The sic was at DBZ's marvelous depiction of the martial arts. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

11-23-2002, 04:30 AM	#12
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Ah yes. You have to love Japanamation. My younger brother is a big fan of the Series, which I dont really understand since most of it consists of people staring at each other going "ARGHHHHHHAHHHH!" for hours. Anyway I was thinking (again), maybe the Ainur would take on bodies to fight so that they could actually have a chance of doing some harm. But that would require a sense of honor, not to revert to un-incarnate form and destroy the other's body. Do Melkor's servants have a sense of Honor? Is the idea of a fair fight shown anywhere amongst the Balrogs or Maia under his command? [ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ] __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

11-23-2002, 04:37 AM	#13
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	Not really to my mind. An example could be the way Wolf-Sauron turns into a snake when he is being beaten by Huan, in order to try and escape. It doesn't work, but he still tried to cheat his way out sort of... I wouldn't say that any of Morgoth's servants had any honour, and especially the higher up the chain you go; the Maia under his dominion probably had even less honour than the orcs and beasts. Yeah, thats a good point about Gandalf breaking saruman's staff. It just sort of happened, as if Gandalf willed it to with his mind, or he knew that was what was going to happen... Are there any similar situations in the HoME series? Sorry, i have a sort of Ainur fixation... __________________ Well, I'm back.