Maiar=Eldila? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarwain · 01-21-2003, 09:13 PM

Perhaps this is one too many topics started in the last two days, and perhaps this one will have even less of a response than "Cookie Cutter Characters", but I think it worthy of discussion all the same. I can only hope that some of you will be interested in what I have to say.

There is a remarkable similarity between the characteristics of C.S. Lewis's "eldila" and Tolkien's Maiar. To those unfamilliar to Lewis's Space Trilogy, I will give a description.

Eldilla are superhuman "spirits" who by nature are without bodies, but can take on forms and appearances in the presence of humans and other racess. They can also move at unmeasurable speeds in and out of worlds. Among the Eldilla are the "Oyarsas", heads who control certain worlds. All together, there are nine "Oyarsas", one for each planet in our solar system.

What does everyone think of the similarities between the eldilla and the maiar?

Iarwain

burrahobbit · 01-21-2003, 10:54 PM

Sounds a lot like any other god I've ever heard of.

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-22-2003, 03:21 AM

Iarwain, I too have noticed the similarity between Tolkien’s Ainur and Lewis’ eldila, especially the Valar and the Oyarses. I remembered posting on that topic when I read your contribution and was puzzled that I couldn’t find it here, until I remembered that it was one of my rare posts on a German forum! I dug it up and translated it for repeating here.

The angels (called eldila) are described as follows:

Quote:

...bodies different from those of planetary animals and… superior in intelligence.

…we have really no knowledge of the shape or size of an eldil, or even of its relations to space (our space) in general.

Like you, I can’t help trying to fix their relation to the things that appear in terrestrial tradition – gods, angels, fairies. But we haven’t the data. When I attempted to give Oyarsa some idea of our own Christian angelology, he certainly seemed to regard our ‘angels’ as different in some way from himself. But whether he meant that they were a different species, or only that they were some special military caste, I don’t know.

(‘Dr. Ransom’, Postscript, Out of the Silent Planet)

Oyarsa is the name of those angels who rule/administer a planet each; there are also eldila of lower orders. The eldila exist on a different plane or level of existence than humans do, are at home in space and almost invisible for humans. The Oyarsa of the earth is a fallen angel, which means that this planet is isolated, silent to the others.

As I see it, both Tolkien and Lewis combined elements of Biblical angelology and mythological gods. The latter is especially evident in the personal appearance of Oyarses as Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter etc.

davem · 01-22-2003, 03:51 AM

As far as I know Lewis 'borrowed' quite often, in a general way, & occaisionally in a more 'obvious' way. They had a very close relationship in the 30's & 40's. Check out Humphrey Carpenter's books - JRRT a Biography, & The Inklings.
That's not to say the influence was all one way. Its clear there wouldn't have been a LotR without Lewis' influence & encouragement. Also its clear from HOME that Lewis had some influence on what Tolkien left in & left out in a small way. We Probably also have Lewis to thank for Tolkien's epilogue being left out of LotR. Have any of you read the Epilogue (in Sauron Defeated, HOME vol 9)? Do you think it should have been left in the book?

burrahobbit · 01-22-2003, 12:58 PM

Sounds a lot like any other gods I've ever heard of.

Iarwain · 01-22-2003, 04:39 PM

Just like to say, Watch the criticism, everybody! He may not be your favorite author, but its completely unnecessary and not really interesting to comment on how he is lesser than Tolkien, and how you once read the chronicles of Narnia and thought them mediocre.

Burrahobbit, as is said in the Barrowdown's rules, if you don't have anything to contribute, don't post! The eldila (sorry about the spelling) are not "gods", and neither are the Oyarsas of each planet. They do resemble the "gods" of greek and roman mythologies, but are not wholly the same.

Thank you for your input, Estelyn, I think that could easily put the topic to rest.

Davem, Tolkien didn't exactly support Lewis on all fronts, and if we could thank him, a great series of children's novels would be unpublished. Lewis did, as you said, encourage Tolkien to finish LotR, so thank him for that! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] Though this is irrelavent, I don't think that the Epilouge should have been included, because it would have let the story end in a very weak way. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Iarwain

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

burrahobbit · 01-22-2003, 04:58 PM

Nor are the Valar gods.

Iarwain · 01-22-2003, 06:52 PM

But they are termed as such by those less knowledgable men, who have heard but faint rumors of them.

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

burrahobbit · 01-22-2003, 09:32 PM

Thus

Greyhame · 01-23-2003, 10:26 PM

There are seven Chronicles, and being as they are intentional allegory specifically written for children, it is impossible to compare them to Tolkien's works.

If you've read them and don't care for them, that's certainly your call to make. To each his own, as it were. The same applies to the Space Trilogy. But, if you won't take the time to at least read the first book, choosing to heap on criticism founded in ignorance instead, then you have no business commenting on Mr. Lewis' remarkable genre-bending tale.

In case anyone feels this has been a direct attack, it is not so. It is always my assumption in this forum that all discussion is informed. For example, I will not ever comment on any aspect of the Harry Potter books simply because I have not read them.

I would hope that this courtesy at least be extended to Narnia and the Space Trilogy as well.

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-23-2003, 11:36 PM

This discussion is supposed to be a comparison between the concepts of angels/gods in Tolkien's works and Lewis' Space Trilogy - it has nothing to do with the Narnia books. Those who post here should have relevant contributions to make to the discussion. Off-topic comments that contribute nothing to the theme are prime candidates for deletion.

doug*platypus · 01-24-2003, 05:42 AM

Is that a Panzer Grenadier helmet on that furry little mammal?? Hmm... I think I'll prefer to believe that he is carrying the telescope from the "You could have searched for that!" picture. Much less threatening.

I've recently started reading Letters of JRRT, and it seems that at least one person thought the word Eldilla had been taken from the word Eldar - Tolkien himself! Maybe later he will talk more explicitly about the book, I'll let you know.

Iarwain · 01-24-2003, 05:55 PM

Sorry about the off posts Estelyn, I figured you would have closed the topic a while ago (I sort of wanted you to). I would never have thought that Tolkien could make such a silly connection. Eldila are much more like Maiar than eldar. There is, however a very open "theft" in "That Hideous Strength" Lewis has a character make a direct refrence to "numinor". He also mentions Numinor as a peice of Tolkien's work in the foreword.

01-21-2003, 09:13 PM	#1
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Maiar=Eldila? Perhaps this is one too many topics started in the last two days, and perhaps this one will have even less of a response than "Cookie Cutter Characters", but I think it worthy of discussion all the same. I can only hope that some of you will be interested in what I have to say. There is a remarkable similarity between the characteristics of C.S. Lewis's "eldila" and Tolkien's Maiar. To those unfamilliar to Lewis's Space Trilogy, I will give a description. Eldilla are superhuman "spirits" who by nature are without bodies, but can take on forms and appearances in the presence of humans and other racess. They can also move at unmeasurable speeds in and out of worlds. Among the Eldilla are the "Oyarsas", heads who control certain worlds. All together, there are nine "Oyarsas", one for each planet in our solar system. What does everyone think of the similarities between the eldilla and the maiar? Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

01-21-2003, 10:54 PM	#2
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Sounds a lot like any other god I've ever heard of. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

01-22-2003, 03:51 AM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	As far as I know Lewis 'borrowed' quite often, in a general way, & occaisionally in a more 'obvious' way. They had a very close relationship in the 30's & 40's. Check out Humphrey Carpenter's books - JRRT a Biography, & The Inklings. That's not to say the influence was all one way. Its clear there wouldn't have been a LotR without Lewis' influence & encouragement. Also its clear from HOME that Lewis had some influence on what Tolkien left in & left out in a small way. We Probably also have Lewis to thank for Tolkien's epilogue being left out of LotR. Have any of you read the Epilogue (in Sauron Defeated, HOME vol 9)? Do you think it should have been left in the book? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

01-22-2003, 12:58 PM	#5
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Sounds a lot like any other gods I've ever heard of. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

01-22-2003, 04:39 PM	#6
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Just like to say, Watch the criticism, everybody! He may not be your favorite author, but its completely unnecessary and not really interesting to comment on how he is lesser than Tolkien, and how you once read the chronicles of Narnia and thought them mediocre. Burrahobbit, as is said in the Barrowdown's rules, if you don't have anything to contribute, don't post! The eldila (sorry about the spelling) are not "gods", and neither are the Oyarsas of each planet. They do resemble the "gods" of greek and roman mythologies, but are not wholly the same. Thank you for your input, Estelyn, I think that could easily put the topic to rest. Davem, Tolkien didn't exactly support Lewis on all fronts, and if we could thank him, a great series of children's novels would be unpublished. Lewis did, as you said, encourage Tolkien to finish LotR, so thank him for that! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] Though this is irrelavent, I don't think that the Epilouge should have been included, because it would have let the story end in a very weak way. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Iarwain [ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ] __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

01-22-2003, 04:58 PM	#7
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Nor are the Valar gods. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

01-22-2003, 06:52 PM	#8
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	But they are termed as such by those less knowledgable men, who have heard but faint rumors of them. [ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ] __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

01-22-2003, 09:32 PM	#9
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Thus __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

01-23-2003, 10:26 PM	#10
Greyhame Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: illinois Posts: 42	There are seven Chronicles, and being as they are intentional allegory specifically written for children, it is impossible to compare them to Tolkien's works. If you've read them and don't care for them, that's certainly your call to make. To each his own, as it were. The same applies to the Space Trilogy. But, if you won't take the time to at least read the first book, choosing to heap on criticism founded in ignorance instead, then you have no business commenting on Mr. Lewis' remarkable genre-bending tale. In case anyone feels this has been a direct attack, it is not so. It is always my assumption in this forum that all discussion is informed. For example, I will not ever comment on any aspect of the Harry Potter books simply because I have not read them. I would hope that this courtesy at least be extended to Narnia and the Space Trilogy as well. __________________ Poo-tee-weet?

01-23-2003, 11:36 PM	#11
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	This discussion is supposed to be a comparison between the concepts of angels/gods in Tolkien's works and Lewis' Space Trilogy - it has nothing to do with the Narnia books. Those who post here should have relevant contributions to make to the discussion. Off-topic comments that contribute nothing to the theme are prime candidates for deletion. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

01-24-2003, 05:42 AM	#12
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Is that a Panzer Grenadier helmet on that furry little mammal?? Hmm... I think I'll prefer to believe that he is carrying the telescope from the "You could have searched for that!" picture. Much less threatening. I've recently started reading Letters of JRRT, and it seems that at least one person thought the word Eldilla had been taken from the word Eldar - Tolkien himself! Maybe later he will talk more explicitly about the book, I'll let you know. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-24-2003, 05:55 PM	#13
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Sorry about the off posts Estelyn, I figured you would have closed the topic a while ago (I sort of wanted you to). I would never have thought that Tolkien could make such a silly connection. Eldila are much more like Maiar than eldar. There is, however a very open "theft" in "That Hideous Strength" Lewis has a character make a direct refrence to "numinor". He also mentions Numinor as a peice of Tolkien's work in the foreword. __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"