Elves Magic... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iargwath · 09-12-2002, 02:34 AM

I was wondering...Did the elves use any magic in battle? Say the 5th battle mentioned in the Silmarillion...they combined with men in that particular battle...but why didnt they use magic to win the battle...i think morgoth was triumphant in that particular battle.
Could elves use magic like that? Or is it always present in an object ie rings...

Tirned Tinnu · 09-12-2002, 05:23 AM

Yes, you've got the kernel of truth there, just! The Rings were a tremendous source of magical power.
But you've got to understand - Even though the Elves created them, it took centuries to learn that art form. They had the help of Aule (The Valar of smithies and armoring) and Melkor, who was thought incarnate. His thoughts could destroy the world or create, but that he did little of.

In the beginning of the tale of Norldor we hear of Feanor and his family learning the arts of gem making. This was one side if their knowlege, but other was the tutilage of those that studied under Aule, and those learned the creation of things in metal.

From these Elves came suits of armor and swords of might, and the dwarves after they awoke taught the Elves even more, for they were the Children of Aule, and had his creative abilities ingrained in their very genetic code, (one might say.)

From all these sources the Elves elevated their sciences to such a level as to be thought of today as magic. Just because a person does not understand the science of an object does not mean that it is magic; it merely means we don't understand! This is the view of Elves when confronted by people like us. When it is descirbed in LOTR, Sam askes if the cloaks that were made for them were magic. The Elves respond, "Well the weave is good...I don't understand what you mean by, magic, though. Rather it is a craft." They imply that it can be learned.
(But it might take you 3000 years to get it right!) I hope that I have helped answer your question. My feeble mind does not do too well so early in the morning. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

lathspell · 09-12-2002, 06:52 AM

The magical powers that the elves posessed were not those that we simply imagine: fireballs here and there or a chain lightning across ten Orcs.
The greater power they had, I think, were in words and songs of power, and they were made for things dear to them. You mention the three elven-rings, they do give a lot of power to the one who posesses it, but it will only give power to the wielder for the thing that it was made for. in case of the elven-rings that was:
- protection
- healing
- preservation
As I noticed from Galadriel elves themselves do not understand the word 'magic' for they themselves use it daily and the word is also used for the tricks and deceits of Sauron.

Nevertheless I think the Elves didn't have much magical powers in the way of blasting and killing. There primary thoughts were to keep the world as it was when the Rings were made, not to fight with someone and win wars with great strength.
Maybe the greatest elves such as Galadriel and Glorfindel had such power in larger amounts, but I think they would still refuse to use it until there is no other way.

I don't think it would matter that much if they had used such powers in the Great Wars of Beleriand, for Morgoth had slaves as well with great magical powers (Balrogs, Sauron, etc.). Also, I believe, I read somewhere that the usuage of the 'evil ways' of magic are corruptive and should be used as less as possible.

Hoping the answer has helped in a way.

greetings,
lathspell

Rimbaud · 09-12-2002, 07:25 AM

lathspell is correct to remind you of the power of Elven song. Note how Luthien gained access to Angband as Turingwethil and later how she persuaded Mandos to 'reanimate' Beren, all with the power of her song.

Feanaro · 09-12-2002, 01:31 PM

This should answer every question, and then some concerning the use of "magic": Magic in Middle-earth

Iargwath · 09-13-2002, 01:55 AM

Thanks guys for your posts...Helped out a lot.
Thanks Again [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
-Iargwath

09-12-2002, 02:34 AM	#1
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Elves Magic... I was wondering...Did the elves use any magic in battle? Say the 5th battle mentioned in the Silmarillion...they combined with men in that particular battle...but why didnt they use magic to win the battle...i think morgoth was triumphant in that particular battle. Could elves use magic like that? Or is it always present in an object ie rings... __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

09-12-2002, 05:23 AM	#2
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Yes, you've got the kernel of truth there, just! The Rings were a tremendous source of magical power. But you've got to understand - Even though the Elves created them, it took centuries to learn that art form. They had the help of Aule (The Valar of smithies and armoring) and Melkor, who was thought incarnate. His thoughts could destroy the world or create, but that he did little of. In the beginning of the tale of Norldor we hear of Feanor and his family learning the arts of gem making. This was one side if their knowlege, but other was the tutilage of those that studied under Aule, and those learned the creation of things in metal. From these Elves came suits of armor and swords of might, and the dwarves after they awoke taught the Elves even more, for they were the Children of Aule, and had his creative abilities ingrained in their very genetic code, (one might say.) From all these sources the Elves elevated their sciences to such a level as to be thought of today as magic. Just because a person does not understand the science of an object does not mean that it is magic; it merely means we don't understand! This is the view of Elves when confronted by people like us. When it is descirbed in LOTR, Sam askes if the cloaks that were made for them were magic. The Elves respond, "Well the weave is good...I don't understand what you mean by, magic, though. Rather it is a craft." They imply that it can be learned. (But it might take you 3000 years to get it right!) I hope that I have helped answer your question. My feeble mind does not do too well so early in the morning. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-12-2002, 06:52 AM	#3
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	The magical powers that the elves posessed were not those that we simply imagine: fireballs here and there or a chain lightning across ten Orcs. The greater power they had, I think, were in words and songs of power, and they were made for things dear to them. You mention the three elven-rings, they do give a lot of power to the one who posesses it, but it will only give power to the wielder for the thing that it was made for. in case of the elven-rings that was: - protection - healing - preservation As I noticed from Galadriel elves themselves do not understand the word 'magic' for they themselves use it daily and the word is also used for the tricks and deceits of Sauron. Nevertheless I think the Elves didn't have much magical powers in the way of blasting and killing. There primary thoughts were to keep the world as it was when the Rings were made, not to fight with someone and win wars with great strength. Maybe the greatest elves such as Galadriel and Glorfindel had such power in larger amounts, but I think they would still refuse to use it until there is no other way. I don't think it would matter that much if they had used such powers in the Great Wars of Beleriand, for Morgoth had slaves as well with great magical powers (Balrogs, Sauron, etc.). Also, I believe, I read somewhere that the usuage of the 'evil ways' of magic are corruptive and should be used as less as possible. Hoping the answer has helped in a way. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

09-12-2002, 07:25 AM	#4
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	lathspell is correct to remind you of the power of Elven song. Note how Luthien gained access to Angband as Turingwethil and later how she persuaded Mandos to 'reanimate' Beren, all with the power of her song. __________________ And all the rest is literature

09-12-2002, 01:31 PM	#5
Feanaro Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 55	This should answer every question, and then some concerning the use of "magic": Magic in Middle-earth __________________ 'See half-brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.' -Feanor, threatening Fingolfin with his sword. ~Moderator of the Mordor RPG.~

09-13-2002, 01:55 AM	#6
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Thanks guys for your posts...Helped out a lot. Thanks Again [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] -Iargwath __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum