Gandalf a "steward?"

[Boromir88]

While reading an excellent post on another forum it posed the question of whether Gandalf saying that he was also a "steward" is more symbolic/metaphorical or if we can see Gandalf as actually being a "steward."

"If you understand it, then be content," returned Denethor. "Pride would be folly that disdained help and counsel at need; but you deal out such gifts according to your own designs. Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy. And to him there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; and the rule of Gondor, is mine and no other man's, unless the king should come again."
"Unless the king should come again?" said Gandalf. "Well, my lord Steward, it is your task to keep some kingdom still against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this" the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor, nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anythig else passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flawer again in days to come. For I am a steward. Did you not know?"

Tolkien establishes a difference between Denethor's definition of "Steward", and Gandalf's definition of "steward." Notice the use of capitilized, uncapitilized.

There can be two different meanings behind the word Steward. Denethor takes his "Stewardship" as he is the "Lord of Gondor," he is it's absolute ruler, and he throws this lackluster response at the end..."I remain in power! Ohhh...unless the king returns." Where another possible word for steward is "guardian." They look over, protect, land/property for it's master.

I think we can all see that throughout the book Gandalf fulfills this stewardship role, he is the caretaker of Middle-earth. But is this supposed to be taken more symbolically? Or is Gandalf the actual steward of Middle-earth? The "steward" of Eru? "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." In that matter, could we also think that all the Istari were the "stewards of Middle-earth," just they strayed from their "stewardship" task?

[Formendacil]

Gandalf says "I am also a steward."

He does not say "I am the steward."

Thus, the door is easily left open to there being several stewards of Middle-earth. Indeed, are not all the Valar and the Maiar "stewards" of Arda, awaiting the "Return of the King"?

Cheers!

[Nimrodel_9]

Indeed, are not all the Valar and the Maiar "stewards" of Arda, awaiting the "Return of the King"?

I suppose that's right. The wizard's were sent to Middle-earth to kinda take care of it, and keep it in order. That is what a steward does.

[Boromir88]

Now that I think about it Nim, they were sort of the Stewards for the Valar. The Valar tried to intervene before, and it didn't seem to work out to well.

Also, it would sort of explain better why Gandalf was the only Istari to succeed in his task. Saruman is pretty self-explanatory. Alatar and Pallando, just not much is said on what they did over there in the east. Radagast was in a way a "steward" of the birds/nature, but as an istar, he was supposed to be a steward of all middle-earth, hence why he falls short.

Good observation Formendacil, using "a" instead of "the."

[Tuor of Gondolin]

As for the Blue Wizards, I'm not all that sure they "failed" totally.
Doesn't Tolkien say somewhere in "Letters" that they were sent as
emessaries to the east (like missionaries), and that they may have had some positive effect in disuniting the eastern and southern peoples from
uniting against the west? I'll have to reread letters, etc.

Radagast is a generally curiously ineffective istari, for good or evil.

But since even Saruman was given more then one chance to repent,
it would seem possible that the other three wizards were welcomed back to
Valinor.- especially given the extremely difficult working conditions of the
Blue Wizards.

[Eruanna]

Tolkien himself wasn't sure of the effect of the Blue Wizards in the east, I seem to remember that he said (in Letters) that he saw them as being the founders of secret societies and religions. Who can say if they failed, perhaps this was their purpose.

The question of 'stewardship' is interesting, when Gandalf says:

"But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care...For I am a steward. Did you not know?"

He seems to be using the title 'steward' almost in its mediaeval sense. As one who takes care of the domestic household and servants of the lord. Another word for steward in those times was 'seneschal'. This word (bearing in mind the Professor's love of words) has its roots in Latin/Ancient Germanic/Anglo Saxon, meaning 'old servant'. I wonder if this was just a coincidence, given the physical appearance of the Istari as they wandered Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

While reading an excellent post on another forum it posed the question of whether Gandalf saying that he was also a "steward" is more symbolic/metaphorical or if we can see Gandalf as actually being a "steward."


Tolkien establishes a difference between Denethor's definition of "Steward", and Gandalf's definition of "steward." Notice the use of capitilized, uncapitilized.

There can be two different meanings behind the word Steward. Denethor takes his "Stewardship" as he is the "Lord of Gondor," he is it's absolute ruler, and he throws this lackluster response at the end..."I remain in power! Ohhh...unless the king returns." Where another possible word for steward is "guardian." They look over, protect, land/property for it's master.

I think we can all see that throughout the book Gandalf fulfills this stewardship role, he is the caretaker of Middle-earth. But is this supposed to be taken more symbolically? Or is Gandalf the actual steward of Middle-earth? The "steward" of Eru? "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." In that matter, could we also think that all the Istari were the "stewards of Middle-earth," just they strayed from their "stewardship" task?

The above post clearly implies that Gandalf was actually a much more powerful opponent than the WK, but was forbidden by Eru to reveal his true power against the enemy, as that was not the reason Eru sent the Istari to ME. Thats why Tolkein decided not to allow a direct battle between him and the WK. I think that the WK (and almost everybody in ME for tht matter) was not aware of the true nature of Gandalf, hence his abusive curses as the two confronted each other.

The WK could not have killed Gandalf, only a being of similar or greater stature, such as a Balrog, or Sauron, could have done so. Gandalf might have been anxious to face the WK, but that was probably because the WK was more than a match for anybody else in Gondor, and could sway the outcome of the fate of ME during the siege of Gondor, unless Gandalf confronted him, and also of the folly of Denethor. Gonder was vulnerable even with the aid of Rohan.

PJ obviously did not think this would work well in the film, leaving people new to the LOTR confused.

[Rhod the Red]

There's no need to take the phrase literally. Gandalf was simply implying that he is also responsible for others the same as Denethor is.

[Legolas]

Right. Gandalf is certainly one of the highest stewards, but it is a role that he thought all should take on. He says this when speaking to the Lords of the West in XI. Chapter 9, 'The Last Debate':

'Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.'

[Rhod the Red]

That's not what he is saying, Legolas. As you can see in the quote you used, once again inaccuately, Gandalf is calling on the Lords assembled to make decisions as usual despite the challenges they were facing.

[davem]

'Steward' in this context seems equivalent to 'Thain' in the Shire: 'They chose from their own chiefs a Thain to hold the authority of the king that was gone.' (LotR Prologue).

The section in italics makes it clear that the Thain was to all intents & purposes in the position of the King, with all his power & authority. The Steward is in the same position in Gondor - unless the King returns. Denethor, therefore is not simply a 'servant' - he is 'King'. As is the Thain in the Shire. Gandalf is 'Steward' in that he is the representative of the Valar (possibly of Eru, rather, as even though it was the Valar who sent him to Middle-earth, it seems from his words to Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas that he had strayed beyond thought & time - ie beyond/outside Arda itself - that it was He who sent him back). It seems what Gandalf is saying is that while Denethor may be Steward/representative of the political & temporal ruler of M-e, he, Gandalf, is Steward/representative of the Divine ruler of all things. Its the old division of Church & State thing.

[tom bombariffic]

Originally posted by Legolas:

it is a role that he thought all should take on

Originally posted by Selmo:

all those who serve and care for Middle Earth, can help him to carry the load.

How are these two responses drastically different? How can one be "again inaccurate" and the other be "well said"? Both Legolas and Selmo appear to me to be saying that Gandalf's opinion is that a steward should not rule alone, but be aided in his role by anyone who cares for, and thus is responsible for, middle earth, in which way we all become 'stewards'.

As far as I can see they just used different semantics to express the same general point (a good one at that).

Originally posted by Rhod The Red:
Gandalf is calling on the Lords assembled to make decisions as usual despite the challenges they were facing.

This is another good message to be drawn from the quote cited by Legolas. Gandalf does press the need to keep making decisions and working, even if the benefits will only be for future generations, but by referring to "us" he also makes it a collective responsibility, again making everyone responsible for middle earth, and thus all 'stewards' of middle earth.

bombariffic

[Boromir88]

Legolas brings up a good point and it goes to the very beginning of this thread. The two different definitions of the word "Stewards."

Denethor's "Steward" is to rule and run the Kingdom as davem points out. Which was the job of the Stewards until a King should return. Hence the title "ruling Steward."

Where Gandalf's "steward," is to act more as an emissary of the Vala and Eru, and to be a caretaker. Also, I would like to point out Formendacil's point when Gandalf says:
"For I am a steward."
The keyword being "a," Gandalf is not the only "steward" there are others. And as Legolas shows Gandalf wants others to act as "stewards."

It comes down to the difference between the two definitions. Tolkien was a linguist, as he purposefully left one capitilized and the other not to emphasize the difference between "Steward" and "steward."

[Selmo]

"Steward" in Denethor's case is capitalised because it's a title, not a common noun.

One point that comes out of the conversation between Gandalf and Denethor is that although Denethor has the title Steward, he is not acting as a steward. A steward serves the interestes of another. Denethor isn't doing that. He thinks that he is serving Gondor but, as he sees himself as an embodiment of Gondor (a function of a King), he is really serving himself. He may be sitting on a plain wooden chair on the lowest step below the Throne but he is, in effect, not steward but Ruler. He calls himself the Lord of Gondor and acts as, and believes himself to be, the King. He rejects the idea that the line of the Kings could ever be re-established.

Gandalf tells him that he should be a steward as well as having the title Steward. As a steward of Gondor, his care for the land and its people should out-weigh his pride as Steward of Gondor, and that that care should mean swallowing his pride and accepting Gandalf's help and advice.

* * * * * * * * * * *

Some posters have suggested that one of Gandalf's roles as a steward is that of Envoy or messenger of The Valar.
I don't see it. If he were a messenger, he would be proclaiming the message he had been given by his masters. He doesn't do that. He never speaks of The Valar or his own origins. Only Cirdan and a few others know that he has come from The West and no-one, except perhaps Galadrial, realises that he is Maiar.
.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Selmo

One point that comes out of the conversation between Gandalf and Denethor is that although Denethor has the title Steward, he is not acting as a steward. A steward serves the interestes of another. Denethor isn't doing that. He thinks that he is serving Gondor but, as he sees himself as an embodiment of Gondor (a function of a King), he is really serving himself ...

Gandalf tells him that he should be a steward as well as having the title Steward. As a steward of Gondor, his care for the land and its people should out-weigh his pride as Steward of Gondor.

(emphasis added)

Interesting that Tolkien, in one of his Letters I think, describes Denethor as a politician, as there is a message there for today's politicians ...