The Witch King versus . . . Elrond? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

08-09-2007, 02:16 PM

If a league table of the most powerful creatures in Middle Earth was made, where would all the main creatures be listed from the Lord of the Rings?

1.Morgoth

2.Sauron

3.Gandalf the White

4.Elrond

5.Elendil

6.Isildur

7.Tom Bombadil

8.Glorfindel

9.Saruman the White

10.Galadriel

11.The Witch King (enhanced)???

Boromir88 · 08-09-2007, 11:43 PM

First 3 look good...really no argument there.

I would move Galadriel and Glorfindel into a tie at fourth...for reasoning you should look at this thread.

Then the rest would kind of look like...

5. Tom Bombadil (Glorfindel - or someone else whom I forget - guesses that Tom would only fall if Sauron had used all of his might against him. 'First as he was last.' Pretty impressive...hmm I might even put him right behind Gandalf).

6. Saruman (Being of the same Order as Gandalf and Sauron he would probably be more powerful than most of the Elves. Now, I'm just kind of guessing this because not all Maiar - just as not all Elves, Men...etc are all equal in power. However, in Letter 156 Tolkien writes that the old Gandalf would not have been able to deal with Saruman...so Saruman too must have been one tough cookie. Hmm now that I think about it I might put him right behind Tom B. who is right behind Gandalf).

7. Elrond
8. Elendil
9. Isildur
10. The Witch-King

That's as far as the ones you have listed. As I would throw Cirdan in there behind Elrond. Eventhough Elendil and Isildur were 'great' among Men, they were still Men and the greatest of the Elves would probably be greater than them.

The Witch-King is after all a Man...he was most likely one of the Numenorean Lords (3 of the Ringwraiths were 'great Lords of Numenor'). Sauron did enhance his powers at the Pelennor, but that just made him a Man with some cool tricks. He still operated primarily off of fear and if one did not fear him (such as Gandalf or even Frodo, Eowyn, and Merry) than he wasn't much of an opponent.

But, I think as you can see there really is no rigid, easily defined 'answers.' You can make some good arguments...and I've seen obloquy make a good argument that Gandalf the White may have been more powerful than Sauron.

Hammerhand · 08-10-2007, 09:11 AM

Because of the amount of conflicting arguments i think you'd struggle to make a list as such. On the one you've made, i think Tom Bombadil would be suited to a place in the top few, i've read a number of interesting debates about his true identity. I'll draw a list of what i think, using the characters you have. Even though, Morgoth doesn't really come into LotR. I really like Boromir88's additional thought of Cirdan; i think maybe Gil-Galad and Celeborn are also worth noting.

1. Morgoth
2. Sauron
3. Tom Bombadil
4. Gandalf the White
5. Saruman the White
6. Glorfindel
7. Elrond
8. Galadriel
9. Elendil
10. Isildur
11. Witch King

and with the additional characters:

1. Morgoth
2. Sauron
3. Tom Bombadil
4. Gandalf the White
5. Saruman the White
6. Glorfindel
7. Elrond
8. Gil-Galad
9. Galadriel
10. Cirdan
11. Celeborn
12. Elendil
13. Isildur
14. Witch King

Raynor · 08-10-2007, 02:03 PM

Why are Morgoth and Elendil present, if the list is about LotR? They belong to different ages, especially Morgoth. And if he is included, then of what age is he compared to Sauron? Cf. Myths Transformed, "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First".

Hammerhand · 08-10-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raynor

Why are Morgoth and Elendil present, if the list is about LotR? They belong to different ages, especially Morgoth. And if he is included, then of what age is he compared to Sauron? Cf. Myths Transformed, "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First".

Well, Elendil was present during the reign of Sauron and the rings... even if for a short while (Last Alliance...) Morgoth on the other hand, as Raynor and i have stated, is somewhat seperate from the third age.

08-15-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

Well, Elendil was present during the reign of Sauron and the rings... even if for a short while (Last Alliance...) Morgoth on the other hand, as Raynor and i have stated, is somewhat seperate from the third age.

Morgoth was still referenced by Gandalf in the LOTR, & it would not seem right to leave out arguably the greatest being (at least on paper) ever to have set foot in ME.

Hammerhand · 08-15-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

Morgoth was still referenced by Gandalf in the LOTR, & it would not seem right to leave out arguably the greatest being (at least on paper) ever to have set foot in ME.

He didn't have an active role in the LoTR, banished from the world as he is - so a mere reference cannot count. Besides, i believe it would seem right to disclude him because of the amount of other powerful characters from past ages that are not counted for. If it covered all the beings of all the ages, i think it is safe to say the list would be totally different.

08-09-2007, 02:16 PM	#1
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	The Witch King versus . . . Elrond? If a league table of the most powerful creatures in Middle Earth was made, where would all the main creatures be listed from the Lord of the Rings? 1.Morgoth 2.Sauron 3.Gandalf the White 4.Elrond 5.Elendil 6.Isildur 7.Tom Bombadil 8.Glorfindel 9.Saruman the White 10.Galadriel 11.The Witch King (enhanced)???

08-09-2007, 11:43 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	First 3 look good...really no argument there. I would move Galadriel and Glorfindel into a tie at fourth...for reasoning you should look at this thread. Then the rest would kind of look like... 5. Tom Bombadil (Glorfindel - or someone else whom I forget - guesses that Tom would only fall if Sauron had used all of his might against him. 'First as he was last.' Pretty impressive...hmm I might even put him right behind Gandalf). 6. Saruman (Being of the same Order as Gandalf and Sauron he would probably be more powerful than most of the Elves. Now, I'm just kind of guessing this because not all Maiar - just as not all Elves, Men...etc are all equal in power. However, in Letter 156 Tolkien writes that the old Gandalf would not have been able to deal with Saruman...so Saruman too must have been one tough cookie. Hmm now that I think about it I might put him right behind Tom B. who is right behind Gandalf). 7. Elrond 8. Elendil 9. Isildur 10. The Witch-King That's as far as the ones you have listed. As I would throw Cirdan in there behind Elrond. Eventhough Elendil and Isildur were 'great' among Men, they were still Men and the greatest of the Elves would probably be greater than them. The Witch-King is after all a Man...he was most likely one of the Numenorean Lords (3 of the Ringwraiths were 'great Lords of Numenor'). Sauron did enhance his powers at the Pelennor, but that just made him a Man with some cool tricks. He still operated primarily off of fear and if one did not fear him (such as Gandalf or even Frodo, Eowyn, and Merry) than he wasn't much of an opponent. But, I think as you can see there really is no rigid, easily defined 'answers.' You can make some good arguments...and I've seen obloquy make a good argument that Gandalf the White may have been more powerful than Sauron. __________________ Fenris Penguin

08-10-2007, 09:11 AM	#3
Hammerhand Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Dark side of the moon. Posts: 81	Because of the amount of conflicting arguments i think you'd struggle to make a list as such. On the one you've made, i think Tom Bombadil would be suited to a place in the top few, i've read a number of interesting debates about his true identity. I'll draw a list of what i think, using the characters you have. Even though, Morgoth doesn't really come into LotR. I really like Boromir88's additional thought of Cirdan; i think maybe Gil-Galad and Celeborn are also worth noting. 1. Morgoth 2. Sauron 3. Tom Bombadil 4. Gandalf the White 5. Saruman the White 6. Glorfindel 7. Elrond 8. Galadriel 9. Elendil 10. Isildur 11. Witch King and with the additional characters: 1. Morgoth 2. Sauron 3. Tom Bombadil 4. Gandalf the White 5. Saruman the White 6. Glorfindel 7. Elrond 8. Gil-Galad 9. Galadriel 10. Cirdan 11. Celeborn 12. Elendil 13. Isildur 14. Witch King __________________ A great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.

08-10-2007, 02:03 PM	#4
Raynor Eagle of the Star Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sarmisegethuza Posts: 1,058	Why are Morgoth and Elendil present, if the list is about LotR? They belong to different ages, especially Morgoth. And if he is included, then of what age is he compared to Sauron? Cf. Myths Transformed, "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First". __________________ "May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."