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11-24-2003, 10:04 AM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
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Thorondor as a Maia???
An intersting point was put to me by a good friend about 3 days ago, of the possibility of Thorondor being a Maia spirit. This seemed to me to not be true, and after a debate i still stick to it. But The main arguments for were that He was exceptionally close to Manwe, as must be expected and subsequently may of been a minor Maia, as some of them took on forms of animals. i have searched for this topic, and the search came up with nothing, and so i was wondering what people thought of the possibility. Also, i was told that there was a reference to it in "Morgoth's Ring"(my bookd [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) but i didnt see it when i rented it my self. if any one can give me a page reference or squash the rumour, i would be very grateful [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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11-24-2003, 10:10 AM | #2 |
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The only thing I can say is that it says that Gwahiar was a descendent of Thorondor at some point. I don't have the reference but i think I remember reading it. Apart from Melian the Maia there is no record of Maiar spirits ever having offspring. This neither proves nor disproves the arguement but it leans more towards the fact that Thorondor was not a Maiar spirit. I would say the relationship between Thorondor and Manwe was more like to that of Huan and Orome.
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11-24-2003, 11:32 AM | #3 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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This question was asked on a thread that has migrated to the 2nd page of Haudh-en-Ndengin (it's called Ealar and Incarnation).
Here's the question (asked by Maehdros)- Quote:
Quote:
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11-24-2003, 01:07 PM | #4 | |
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11-24-2003, 01:19 PM | #5 |
Beloved Shadow
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Ungoliant was an Ainu, not a Maia (Ainu helper of the Valar).
[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]
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11-24-2003, 02:22 PM | #6 |
A Northern Soul
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As the phantom notes, 'Maia' is not a term used for all Ainur aside from the 14 Valar and Morgoth. It is a classification, a job title, for those Ainur that help the Valar.
For a more in-depth review of what a Maia is, try this thread.
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11-24-2003, 05:28 PM | #7 |
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There are quite a lot of characters in Tolkien that don't quite fit the formal hierarchy of being, as it were: creatures with intelligence,personality and an in-dwelling spirit. Are they all Maiar? And if not, what are they? The eagles and the ents, of course; Ungoliant and her offspring; the vampire-like Thuringwethil (sp?); the dragons; Bombadil and Goldberry, and the River-Mother. Many of these clearly can propagate their 'species'. There are probably others. Tolkien was plainly struggling about orcs, and did not really come up with a satisfactory answer. He created a lot of beings that didn't fit his system, and there is no solving this one. Since Tolkien's conceit for his creations was that LOTR, the Silmarillion and the Hobbit were all surviving accounts of a vanished world, we can just accept that this surviving material didn't include all the answers and explanations of the mysteries of the Elder Days.
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11-24-2003, 06:00 PM | #8 |
Deathless Sun
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Many of them are Ainur, rather like distant cousins of the Valar and Maiar, so some of the "normal rules" may not apply to them. Some could be very weak (compared to the Valar and Maiar) Ainur, and thus, appear as highly sentient animals, rather than in specific Vala or Maia forms.
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11-24-2003, 09:33 PM | #9 |
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In Morgoths ring, it is said that Thorondor is a maia spirit inside an animal. My guess is that is somewhat like what happened with dragons: worms inhabited by fell spirits.
I do not have the exact page, but I will look it up. Thorondor had a maia spirit inside of him, and of that Im sure. And about Ungoliant the Great, and Shelob (last daughter of Ungoliant), Ungoliant was a maia spirit, the maia of darkness. And that is said in the Silmarillion. My guess (again) is that as Melian did, she mated with other fell creatures in form of spiders (but these creatures were not maia), ate them and spawned offspring (check "Of the flight of the Noldor")
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11-25-2003, 12:29 AM | #10 |
Beloved Shadow
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If Maia only refers to an Ainu who was a helper of the Valar, Ungoliant can't be a Maia (because she wasn't a helper or servant of the Valar). The same goes for Shelob.
(and the Sil certainly does not call her "the Maia of darkness")
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11-25-2003, 09:46 AM | #11 |
Deathless Sun
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Ungoliant could have served Morgoth at some point in time, and then have "rebelled." I have a feeling that there were many Maiar in Morgoth's "train," and he sort of experimented on them. Ungoliant could have been one of those.
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11-25-2003, 12:10 PM | #12 | |
Beloved Shadow
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It's true that Ungoliant originally served Morgoth but later "disowned her Master". But remember this from Valaquenta-
Quote:
I'd say that former servants of the Valar and servants of former Valar would have to be called former Maia (since they no longer fit the job description). Unless you do choose to believe that once a Maia always a Maia, in which case every single Ainu that came to Arda that followed one of the Valar (or Melkor) is indeed a Maia. But on that note, it appears from the text that Ungoliant descended into Arda on her own, in other words she wasn't following anybody at the time (therefore was not originally a servant of the Valar or Melkor). Or do unaffiliated Ainu become Maia the instant they serve a Vala or former Vala, even if it's only temporary? (wow... this is fun [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )
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11-25-2003, 02:23 PM | #13 |
Deathless Sun
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I agree with your last point. I think that Ainur become Maiar whenever they start serving a Vala, the length of that servitude doesn't matter. What is important is that they served, and thusly, Ungoliant is a Maia of Morgoth (when he was a Vala).
(You're right, this is fun.)
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11-25-2003, 02:50 PM | #14 |
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I was wondering, where are we getting the definition of Maia as a servant of a Vala? Anyone know which book (and perhaps chapter or page number) this information comes from?
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11-25-2003, 03:29 PM | #15 |
Haunting Spirit
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Mae - "With the Valar came other spirits whos being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers" (Valaquenta "Of the Maiar"). I guess that will kind of do for evidence.
The Phantom - you actually left out what appears the last note concerning the nature of Huan and the Eagles found in Morgoth's Ring. "At the bottom of the page bearing the brief text V (p. 389) my father jotted down the following, entirely unconnected with the matter of the text: Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)" This statement of Huan being a Maia is in the notes to the "Myths Transformed" text you quote. It was found on the on the bottom of the paper of text V of "Myths Transformed." Text V was found in a newspaper dated from November 1958. The text which you quote indicating that Huan and the Eagles are not Maiar was written on Merton College papers of 1955. Thus, this last quote above is the most recent statement on the matter, and has Huan being a Maia (and we can perhaps extend this to the Eagles given the texts you quote which relate the two).
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11-25-2003, 05:17 PM | #16 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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Quote:
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So, Tolkien appears to have flip-flopped a bit, which I can understand given the problem of procreation among the Ainur (whether or not it was possible). I certainly cannot imagine one of the "good guys" procreating with a common, souless beast. But if two Ainu could indeed procreate (as long as they became incarnate), that leads to many possibilities. For example, if there was a female balrog (which is entirely possible, the Sun after all is guided by a female spirit of flame) then the balrogs could've had balrog children. Dragons could've had children. But then there's this problem- how can two Ainu, who are by their nature discarnate, produce an incarnate? Ainu are not incarnate in their beginnings. They are spiritual beings by nature. They only become incarnate through excessive contact with the incarnate world (through a physical form). So is it possible for a being who's nature is spirit to be incarnate at their conception? Would they still be considered Ainu if their base nature wasn't discarnate? I think I'll try doing a search of similar topics when I get home tonight to see if any of this has been addressed (in depth) here on the Downs. [ 06:18 PM November 25, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]
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11-25-2003, 05:29 PM | #17 | ||
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From Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire, the Hobbit:
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The fact that they were sentient is of no relevance, unless we are going to say that Carc's race and the thrush at Erebor were Maiar too. Ah, you may say, but they could have been Maiar who clothed themselves in bird-form, and thus appeared as birds to Bilbo, who knew no better than to describe them as such when recording these events. But that does not change the fact that we have Tolkien (the true author) referring to them as birds in a published work. Perhaps this explains the quote from Myths Transformed that the phantom gave: Quote:
And, in any event, what is the problem, conceptually, with the Eagles simply being giant eagles? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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11-25-2003, 06:56 PM | #18 |
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I am sorry, but I know that the Silmarillion never called Ungoliant the maia of darkness. I only placed that adjective on her because of her Unlight, described in the Silmarillion, that was more than just abscense of light, but something that pierced the eye and broke your spirit...
And I said that about her because Morgoth sought her help out because of 3 reasons: her poison (that would kill the Trees), the webs (that could ease his transportation to Aman) and BECAUSE OF HER DARKNESS (a darkness that was able to resist Varda's glare, a darkness that broke Tulkas and Orome's spirit)... For all that power, that's the reason why I characterized her as the maia of darkness, or the darkest ainu... Just as Olorin is the wisest of the maia... [ 07:59 PM November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Iarhen ]
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11-25-2003, 11:25 PM | #19 | ||||
Beloved Shadow
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Quote:
In that incarnation thread I alluded to earlier, Oblo posted a Tolkien quote from Myths Transformed- Quote:
And SPMan, you said this- Quote:
Hmm... that might take us off topic. We'd better forget about it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Quote:
Darkness, Iarhen? Sorry for the misunderstanding, but my comment had nothing to do with the "darkness" part of your statement, it had to do with the fact that you called her "MAIA" since one of the things I was questioning in this thread was whether or not she was in fact a Maia. So when you said that the Sil calls her "Maia" (when it doesn't) it sort of messes the debate up (because if the Sil really did call her "Maia", the question would be answered). It's "Maia" that I had a problem with. Do you get what I mean now? (I suppose I could've let it slip, but I just don't like Galadriel-worshipers [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )
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11-26-2003, 09:51 PM | #20 |
Wight
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LOL... I got confused again... Well, lets just pretend I was talking about Ungoliant as an ainu, not as a maia...
And what do you have against us, Galadriel worshippers?!?!? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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12-01-2003, 11:53 AM | #21 |
Deathless Sun
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We also have to remember that Tolkien constantly changed things around in his stories, especially in the Silmarillion. Just look at Gil-galad's parentage if you want an example. We still can't decide if he was Fingon's son or Orodreth's son. Tolkien could have intended the Great Eagles to be Maiar at one point, and then changed his mind, and forgot to change some things around in the Silmarillion to reflect that new decision.
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12-02-2003, 02:38 PM | #22 |
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Although Thorondor was close to Manwe, as was stated abov, there are no records of Maia having offspring, and i agree with the theory that Manwe and Thorondor were like Orome and Huan
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12-02-2003, 08:23 PM | #23 |
Spectre of Decay
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This may seem a little obvious, but Lúthien's mother is a Maia.
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12-02-2003, 10:11 PM | #24 |
Beloved Shadow
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I think he meant two Maia having children together.
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12-03-2003, 11:31 AM | #25 |
Deathless Sun
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Squatter, wouldn't Melian be an exception, because she fell in love with an Elf? That was probably the only case of a Maia falling in love with an Elf, and since their union was essential for Morgoth to eventually be defeated (Earendil wouldn't have made it to Valinor without the Silmaril, which Luthien and Beren recovered from Morgoth), the Valar probably let Melian "reproduce" with Thingol.
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01-29-2010, 06:31 AM | #26 |
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I always had the impression that Ents, Eagles, and Dragons were lesser Ainu (or at least eala) spirits. The Ents and Eagles are described as receiving 'spirits from afar' (I think the quote was posted a couple posts ago) which implies their spirits pre-existed their bodies; which would make them ealar incidentally embodied rather than fear as the spirits of Men, Elves etc.
fea =soul of an Incarnate like the Children of Iluvatar, Dwarves; eala = spirit naturally disembodied, but can take on form by 'self-arraying' or become incarnate (Morgoth, Sauron, Istari etc.) The Ainur are all ealar, but it's never stated if all ealar are Ainur, and some texts suggest there might be at least non-Maia-non-Vala ealar (the Valaquenta says that the Aratar surpass "beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Iluvatar has sent into Ea.") 'Sent into Ea' implies ealar spirits since Men, Elves etc. were created within Ea. Somewhere in HOME (probably Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien says that Ainur reproducing in incarnate form acts to bind them to their bodies. It seems to be an ability they naturally possess and not something that needs a special dispensation (which Ungoliant in any case wouldn't have received). I don't think a clear answer on the 'was Thorondor a Maia' question is really possible, since Tolkien wrote both, but to me the version where the original Eagles of Manwe were minor Maiar embodied in permanent physical forms (analogous to the Istari perhaps) seems the firmer one. |
02-02-2010, 04:54 AM | #27 |
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I would also have problems with the origin of the quote "mightiest of the descendants of Thorondor". It might just be a conjecture by hobbits getting mesmerized by newfound information and legends from both Rivendell or Gondor. Or even more, who in Middle-Earth could claim knowledge about events of the First Age?
I think we can also dwell a lot on the meaning of this kinship between Thorondor and Gwaihir & Landroval. It might be just a kinship of legacy, affiliation to the good side, a similarity in standing among their kin, might and abilities they possess. All in all, this phrase seems like an interjection from someone whose identity completely unknown to us (Bilbo? Frodo? some scribe?) with no backing from anyone else at the time of the events - not that we can expect many, if anyone, to be able to testify on this issue, to begin with.
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02-02-2010, 12:42 PM | #28 |
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Cirdan. But otherwise, I agree that the First Age was probably shrouded in history for most people by the time of the War of the Ring.
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12-04-2003, 05:53 AM | #29 |
Spectre of Decay
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That's why it's important to speak clearly and precisely. The statement to which I was responding declared that there were no records of Maiar having offspring. This is a statement of fact, not a rule. As such it can have no exceptions, but is either right or wrong. Melian was a Maia, and there are records of her having offspring, so the statement is wrong. I note now that this was mentioned above, but the statement is no more correct for that.
As it happens, in the earlier conceptions of the mythology Fionwë was the son of Manwë, and the Valinorean host was led by 'the sons of the Valar'. Much later, Tolkien declared that the production of offspring was one of those activities that could bind an ëala to its assumed hröa. This statement (from the essay Ósanwe-kenta) may be found in Obloquy's first post in the Ëalar and Incarnation thread. The clear implication is that Ainur could, if both incarnate, produce offspring between them (although there are no examples in the writings as they have come down to us), but that this would serve to bind both spirits more closely to their assumed hröa. The presence of this concept at widely spaced intervals in the development of the Legendarium is for me a clear indication that it was early conceived and never abandoned. It should be noted that something cannot be assumed to be impossible within Tolkien's mythological framework simply because it lacks precedent in his writings, although as late as the commencement of The Lord of the Rings he clearly had it in his mind that the Valar could conceive and bear children among themselves. The actual quotation from Myths Transformed, which has been alluded to by various people on this thread is: <SUB>What of talking beasts and birds? with reasoning and speech? These have been rather lightly adopted from 'serious' mythologies, but play a part which cannot be excised. They are certainly 'exceptions' and not much used, but sufficiently to show that they are a recognized feature of the world. All other creatures accept them as natural if not common. But true 'rational' creatures, 'speaking peoples', are all of human / 'humanoid' form. Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar [Thorondor] could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwë. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendents of Sorontar.</SUB> (Morgoth's Ring pp 409-410) This is about as unambiguous a statement as it can be, although on a cursory reading it might be misconstrued: the Eagles cannot be descended from a Maiarin Thorondor; therefore, since Tolkien has already said in a published work that they are descended from Thorondor, he cannot have been a Maia (or by implication any ëala, as Obloquy's post states). Why Tolkien thought this is dealt with in the same section of Myths Transformed. Returning very briefly to the subject of the canonicity of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, I accept those simply because Tolkien himself tried always to avoid contradicting them, as the quotation from Morgoth's Ring indicates. If Tolkien accepted those publications as canon, then I think it only fair for us to do likewise. [ 3:13 PM December 04, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]
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12-04-2003, 02:58 PM | #30 | ||
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But why would Tolkien think this if two Ainu can indeed have offspring? If they could then there'd be no problem with the relationship between Thorondor and Gwaehir. The fact that there were descendants involved seemed to make Tolkien inclined to say that the ancestor was not a Maia spirit. Why is this if Ainu can indeed reproduce together? (or am I misinterpreting the quote?)
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12-04-2003, 03:48 PM | #31 |
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Actually, it is doubtful whether two Ainur spirits could conceive children. We know that it is possible with an Elf from the one example we have, but that is about it. If we suppose such a union could beget offspring, it is still questionable whether these would be raised to about the same level as their parents, or whether they would fall under the category of beasts raised to a higher level, in which case one would have to suppose that the union would have violated an axan anyway.
While it was very likely the case that Ainur spirits conceived children with non-rational beings (without a fea), that would have to be attributed to the bad side only. It also seems to be a practical explanation of the origin of orcs in agreement with the later Morgoth's Ring essays of Umaiarin orcs and orcs evolved from beasts. In any case, Tolkien's statement that "the same sort of thing may be said of Húan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fëar" (Myths Transformed) poses the least difficulty in alignment with published texts. |
12-04-2003, 07:32 PM | #32 |
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Ok, this may be going back on what I posted previously, but if it is possible for a Maia in incarnate form to mate with a non-Maiar being to produce incarnate non-Maiar offspring, why should it be impossible for a non-Maia Gwaihir to be descended from a Maiar but incarnate Thorondir? Just as Aragorn was descended from a Maiar but incarnate Melian.
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12-04-2003, 09:15 PM | #33 | |||
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Tolkien would certainly not allow such behavior on the good guy side.
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12-05-2003, 03:36 AM | #34 | |
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Quote:
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12-05-2003, 05:18 AM | #35 |
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However, all sentient beings are either Children or Ainur-class/ealar, so that leaves little choice. Union of a maiarin spirit with the first would beget children like Luthien, not eagles; union with the latter is a difficult matter because we have no example for such a case (if possible).
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12-05-2003, 05:41 AM | #36 | |
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12-05-2003, 06:56 AM | #37 |
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Well, Tolkien pondered this difficulty in one place in Myths Transformed, and seemed to have come to the satisfying conclusion later:
<sub>These have been rather lightly adopted from 'serious' mythologies, but play a part which cannot be excised. They are certainly 'exceptions' and not much used, but sufficiently to show that they are a recognized feature of the world. All other creatures accept them as natural if not common. But true 'rational' creatures, 'speaking peoples', are all of human / 'humanoid' form. Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar [Thorondor] could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwë. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendents of Sorontar. ############################ In summary: I think it must be assumed that [orcs] 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fëa...talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots), in The Lord of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.... The same sort of thing may be said of Húan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fëar.</sub> The criterion for what is a truly rational creature is therefore possession of a fea. Mating with beings without a fea, and as stated, only humanoids have fear in addition to the higher beings, would be off the table for a Maia. We cannot assume that there were non-maiarin eagles, possessing a fea. |
12-05-2003, 07:46 AM | #38 |
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Yes, I see now. Thanks Sharkû. Sorry for being so slow on the uptake. I find these concepts of fea and hroar quite difficult to come to terms with. I think that it's because of my resistance (Tolkien's words notwithstanding) to this idea that Orcs, Eagles etc were basically animals taught to talk parrot-fashion. With Orcs, this concept doesn't square with my conception fellows such as Ugluk, Shagrat and Gorbag, built up through the conversations that they have with their fellow Orcs (although I can appreciate that it gets over issues such as what happens to Orcish feas and whether they are capable of redemption).
The same goes for the Eagles and the Ravens. It just doesn't work for me to view their "sentience" as being akin to that of a parrot when they appear (like the Orcs) to express their own independent thoughts and opinions. But those, I suppose, are issues for another topic. As I said earlier, I have no problem, conceptually, with Thorondor not being a Maia. I simply have a problem with him being a parrot. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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12-05-2003, 09:00 AM | #39 |
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What, at least he's a lot closer to a parrot than the orcs! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
Seriously though, the character of orcs such as Shagrat/Gorbag or Grishnakh might be explained by Tolkien's idea that there were orcs who are umaiarin in origin (or mannish, Elven, etc) and that some do possess fear. HerenIstarion wrote an excellent essay on that, linked through our FAQ section, proposing a theory of multiple origins, and speculating about the nature of the assumed orcish fëar. Looking at an orc like Ugluk, on the other hand, I find the 'parrot' idea not too unfitting -- he does not have very much of a mind of his own, does he. The status of eagles, elevated from that of wild beasts by contact with the Valar also seems credible to me. Certainly Manwe would at least be able to raise 'his' creation slightly. Eurytus' beloved fox, the ravens of Erebor and other seemingly speaking animals propose greater difficulty, I think. Tolkien admits that they were lightly and perhaps even carelessly adopted, so it might not be too far from the books to suppose that they were in fact exaggerations and colourful inventions by Bilbo writing down There and Back Again and the Fellowship of the Ring into the Red Book. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:12 PM December 05, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ] |
12-24-2003, 02:57 PM | #40 | |
Haunting Spirit
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Here's a semi-related question: Are/were there any eagle civilizations besides that of Thorondor’s kin? Because people have been saying that there are no records of Maia/Maia offspring, and Melian is an exception because she fell in love with an elf, so what if there were non-Maia eagles and a Maia-Thorondor?
I think it is more likely, however, that Thorondor and his descendants were just skillful and intelligent eagles, who became, as Sharkû said, Quote:
Of course, there’s nothing wrong with debating!
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I sit beside the fire and think of people long ago, And people who will see a world that I shall never know. |
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