'Which is as Fate to all Things Else’

[HerenIstarion]

The poll is made at Nilpaurion Felagund’s bidding, who, evidently, found the debate of davem and yours truly about the subject interesting and requested study of general opinion.

The guidelines:

Therefore [Eru] willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

Reference:

Evil Things (page 2 and onward)
That Good Night – Gift or Punishment?
The Halls of Mandos and Elvish ‘Free Will’
The Role of Fate In Middle Earth
The Treason of Isengard: Eru’s Plan?

My own (i.e. HerenIstarion’s) opinion:

Treason of Isengard, post #16
Evil Things, post #90
Good Night, post #8
Evil Things, post #92
Halls of Mandos and Elvish ‘Free Will’, post #18

Multiple choices are allowed

[Raynor]

Considering your _specific_ guideline, I will go with the first option, having in mind the following:

Originally Posted by Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!

as I don't see what kind of operations the Men would be capable of when dying or beyond the circles of the world. To further my case, here is the HoME X version of the paragraph:

Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to fashion their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else. And of their operation everything should be, in shape and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. Lo! even we, Elves, have found to our sorrow that Men have a strange power for good or ill, and for turning things aside from the purpose of Valar or of Elves; so that it is said among us that Fate is not master of the children of Men; yet are they blind, and their joy is small, which should be great.

However, in the greater scheme of things, I consider their special freedom to be their escaping Ea, before its end.

[davem]

Well, I had to go with the first option, I'll post later.

[narfforc]

I went with the first option also. Mainly due to the Judeo/Christian belief that God gave independent thought and choice to Adam. That choice which some call concience and the knowledge of good or evil, but which allows you to choose either path and be judged accordingly. However I do see The Special Freedom as not being bound to life everlasting, and death within the physical world.

[Gurthang]

I'm not sure that I can answer this question without having 'special freedom' defined specifically. I don't suppose it will be, so I will do my best without such a definition.

First, I've always considered Death to be the Gift of Men. That is quite frankly the most freeing thing in all of Tolkien's works. The fact that the Elves, Valar, and Maiar are all bound within Ea seems almost restrictive, even cosidering how vast the world is. Men, however, can specifically leave the Circles of the World. That gives them so much 'freedom' since they are no longer trapped in Middle Earth. I should note that this 'freedom' is not exactly free, because they don't have an option not to die. That's mostly why Men shunned Death as a Gift; they decided that they would rather stay in the world. Strange to think that the 'freedom' that was 'given' them was often against their will. Anyway, I do believe that Death is meant to be freeing to Men, so I will certainly vote for that.

But I will also check the box beside "During his lifetime...". It is right there in the text, so I can't really say a lot against it. Men could make their own choices amid the Music of the Ainur, choices that the Elves and the Valar could not make for themselves.

Although (and maybe this should be it's own thread), I do question the equality of between the Music of the Ainur and Eru's Theme. I think most of us take those to be exactly the same, but it just occured to me that they don't have to be. What the Ainur 'played' was certainly what Eru wanted, and was part of his Theme, but maybe it wasn't all of his Theme. Somewhat like a real composer whose musicians play mostly what he wants, but not to the fullest potential. That doesn't really put it quite right, but I hope it helps. Anyway, take for instance Melkor's Discord. It was not supposed to be a part of the Music, but it turned out that it played directly into Iluvatar's overall Theme. The Music of the Ainur was not Iluvatar's complete Theme, but only a part, and Melkor's Discord was another. This makes me think that Men, by nature, are similar to Morgoth. The Free Will given to them is freedom outside the Music (for Ea), but not ouside the overall Theme. Basically, Men, by their actions, fill in the gaps around the Music of the Ainur so the that the Theme may be utterly complete as dictated by Eru. This would mean that the actions of Men are predestined by Iluvatar, but were not a part of the Music played by the Ainur.

I'm not sure what to think about what I just typed. It seems sound to me, but I just don't know. Any input would be splendid.

[Gurthang]

I just looked at the results. It's almost funny. I, HerenIstarion, and Son of Númenor all chose two answers. Yet we all chose different pairs. I'm interested especially in Son's reasoning for picking before and after death, but not the fact of death.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by narfforc

I went with the first option also. Mainly due to the Judeo/Christian belief that God gave independent thought and choice to Adam. That choice which some call concience and the knowledge of good or evil, but which allows you to choose either path and be judged accordingly.

Well, my comment isn't so much related to Tolkien as to narf's comment that God gave knowledge of good or evil to man. Maybe I'm reading narf's line wrong--which could easily be the case--but my understanding of this belief system which he mentions is that God set up one restriction, which was that man was not supposed to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So, the independent thought was not between good and evil, but between to eat or not to eat. At least originally wasn't that the choice? After all, were Adam and Eve aware of what the consequence of the choice was, other than simply disobeying the injunction? I mean, they couldn't have known what the difference meant--having not eaten the fruit--before they ate the fruit. Right?

[Raynor]

This would mean that the actions of Men are predestined by Iluvatar, but were not a part of the Music played by the Ainur.

I disagree; this would imply that Men can act with impunity (cf Myths Transformed, Men are free from the consequences of their actions only when the intention is good and all possible effort has been performed).

Free will is guaranteed for Men, as stated in letter #181 and:

Originally Posted by Letter #153

Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences.

It is true that Eru is named the only wholly free agent, but that is because he can make exceptions to "all rules and ordinances".

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So, the independent thought was not between good and evil, but between to eat or not to eat. At least originally wasn't that the choice? After all, were Adam and Eve aware of what the consequence of the choice was, other than simply disobeying the injunction? I mean, they couldn't have known what the difference meant--having not eaten the fruit--before they ate the fruit. Right?

I believe that the choice wasn't really a matter of eating, but of obedience. God had said not to eat. As far as consequences, I'm going to quote the Bible. (hope that doesn't land me in hot water.)

Genesis 2:17
But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

Hope that helps.

Raynor, I'm not sure what you mean, as I am unsure what impunity is. And I fail to see how the quote you provided states that Men are guaranteed Free Will. In fact, the little that I can make of it seems to agree with my theory.

[Peregrin Took]

I'm not entirely sure. Tolkien does say that death is the gift of Man...

[Gollum the Great]

In the Akallabeth the Valars', messenger says:

"And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Iluvatar."

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

I'm not entirely sue on this matter, men have the gift of death, so they can pass out of the world and it's griefs. But after men die they go to another heaven-like place, do they not? Also, men have more freedom then say the elves, men can run around and do things that elves cannot do, so that also is freedom... But the greatest of all of them? I do not know.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I voted for the gift of Death. There was an pretty good explanation in the Akallabeth:

'... The Eldar, you say, are unpunished, and even those who revelled do not die. Yet that is to them neither reward nor punishment, but the fulfilment of their being. They cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you are punished for the rebellion of Men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?' - The Akallabeth, The Silmarillion

There was a much better argument in HOME: Morgoth's Ring, of course. (Self-multilation for misplacement). But it kind of make you wonder... are there other worlds and universes outside of Arda?

I can't contemplate Non-being... but I can swallow the fact that some folk may be able to contemplate non-being. The very fact that I can accept that fact shows that imagination has no limits (mine at least... with the exception of dreaming of foul breathe...). Maybe the gift of Death allowed Men to exit the limitations of the living world, and into something more akin to their imaginations?