Lorien - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gorthaur the Cruel · 01-15-2005, 12:30 PM

1.) It sounds to me by the description of the books that the two Loriens (from Valinor & Middle-Earth) were equally beautiful (which do you think is the fairest?). Since the light of the two trees has perished in Valinor, that light seems to be present (although in small measure) in Lothlorien, where Galadriel was ruling. The Elven rings gave power according to the measure of the wearers & in the UT, Galadriel was reffered to as the greatest of the Noldor, save Feanor & that within her tresses, the light of two Trees were ensnared which everyone held a marvel. So this could be responsible for that unearhtly light within lothlorien & even Gandalf sings about it in the TT. Could it be that Lorien in ME was fairer than that of Valinor after the death of the two Trees? It is obvious that Galadriel had made as a memorial by what she saw before the two trees died.

2.) Was lothlorien more fairer than Doriath?

3.) Before Celeborn & Galadriel dwelt in Lorien, the silvan elves that lived there were plenty in numbers & they were happy & free even w/out Galadriel, but at the war of the ring, Lorinand was changed to Lothlorien due to the adjustments that Galadriel had worked via Nenya. So everyone was happy go lucky until the destruction of the One & all things contrived by the Three began to fade. So by the time Arwen lays herself in Cerin Amroth, why was it deserted? If the silvan folks of lorien were happy even before Galadriel & her usage of Nenya, why desert the Mallorns, & why sing no more... & the light fade?

Michael Wilhelmson · 01-15-2005, 12:45 PM

For your questions:

1. The trees of Lorien ME were immortal, just as the ones of valinor, by the power of Nenya to alter time. Valinor's Lorien was spoiled by Ungoliath and Morgoth, and thus is reduced in beauty. However, the ME Lorien was unspoiled excepting periodic invasions, and all of these were defended against. Just as Valinor declined in beauty upon the destruction of the trees, the perfection of Lorien upon its creation was preserved and added to when Nenya was introduced. Thus, the immortal Lorien in mortal ME must be fairer than the despoiled Lorien in Valinor.

2. I will need to consult the book on this, as I would expect such a question to be answered in a song.

3. First, the time of the elves is over in Middle Earth, the passing of an age (One might ask why the dwarves did not resurface as the world was made safe again.)
Second, perhaps the Sindar there had been tempted to the light of the trees and the Noldor king and queen as had the Eldar before. The light of Galadriel may have attracted the forest Elves just as the light of Valinor drew the High Elves across the sea.

Gorthaur the Cruel · 01-16-2005, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Wilhelmson

For your questions:

1. The trees of Lorien ME were immortal, just as the ones of valinor, by the power of Nenya to alter time. Valinor's Lorien was spoiled by Ungoliath and Morgoth, and thus is reduced in beauty. However, the ME Lorien was unspoiled excepting periodic invasions, and all of these were defended against. Just as Valinor declined in beauty upon the destruction of the trees, the perfection of Lorien upon its creation was preserved and added to when Nenya was introduced. Thus, the immortal Lorien in mortal ME must be fairer than the despoiled Lorien in Valinor.

2. I will need to consult the book on this, as I would expect such a question to be answered in a song.

3. First, the time of the elves is over in Middle Earth, the passing of an age (One might ask why the dwarves did not resurface as the world was made safe again.)
Second, perhaps the Sindar there had been tempted to the light of the trees and the Noldor king and queen as had the Eldar before. The light of Galadriel may have attracted the forest Elves just as the light of Valinor drew the High Elves across the sea.

I agree with your answer to the 1st question since Galadriel already left with the host of the Noldor before the Darkening of Valinor could be amended & only then when they landed in Beleriand when the Sun had first shone, so she did not see the Lorien gardens after the destruction of the Trees. So her Lorien was more fairer I deem since she modeled it in the age of the two Trees. But Lothlorien was never assailed though. Dol Guldur was never able to polute, the damage was only in the borders of the wood. And I've been wondering if there were Mallorn trees in Valinor for I've never heard of the book mentionng them except in Numenor which only one Mallorn grew.

Michael Wilhelmson · 01-16-2005, 07:02 AM

In the Appendices, Tolkien says that two foreign trees were introduced to Middle-Earth- The White Tree of Numenor, and the Mallorn of Lorien. Both of these trees resemble the Two that existed in Valinor, and are mortal versions of the darkened trees. Lady Galariel could easily have brought the mallorn itself to Middle-Earth, just as the kings of Numenor were gifted the White tree from the valar.

Gorthaur the Cruel · 01-16-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Wilhelmson

In the Appendices, Tolkien says that two foreign trees were introduced to Middle-Earth- The White Tree of Numenor, and the Mallorn of Lorien. Both of these trees resemble the Two that existed in Valinor, and are mortal versions of the darkened trees. Lady Galariel could easily have brought the mallorn itself to Middle-Earth, just as the kings of Numenor were gifted the White tree from the valar.

I don't think the Lady Galadriel brought Mallorn to middle-earth for it was said that Gil-Galad had gave these to her (mallorn nuts), & it was actually derived from the Numenorians where only one Mallorn grew in all the lands. It was said that they were the fairest & mightiest of all trees but I've never heard them growing somewhere in Tol Eressea, or Valinor, or even the gardens of Irmo Lorien, no Mallorns have been mentioned... so Galadriel's version of Lorien might've been the fairest.

Thinlómien · 01-20-2005, 07:52 AM

I, with my small knowledge, shall now come and interrupt your peace and harmony

Because I disagree with you all. I think that Lórien of Valinor was fairer.

It was in Valinor. The reason might sound stupid, but in Valinor all was basicly more beautiful. Nothing never died there (except some elves, but we won't discuss it now).
The Valar, Lórien and Estë lived there. I suppose that they had more power to make their Lórien beautiful than Galadriel had with Nenya.
And all the light didn't go with the two trees; the sun came, and the moon. And they stayed in Valinor longer than in Middle-Earth.
So I can't see any reason why Galadriel's Lórien would have been more beutiful than Lórien of Valinor.

01-15-2005, 12:30 PM	#1
Gorthaur the Cruel Wight Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Mordor Posts: 150	Lorien 1.) It sounds to me by the description of the books that the two Loriens (from Valinor & Middle-Earth) were equally beautiful (which do you think is the fairest?). Since the light of the two trees has perished in Valinor, that light seems to be present (although in small measure) in Lothlorien, where Galadriel was ruling. The Elven rings gave power according to the measure of the wearers & in the UT, Galadriel was reffered to as the greatest of the Noldor, save Feanor & that within her tresses, the light of two Trees were ensnared which everyone held a marvel. So this could be responsible for that unearhtly light within lothlorien & even Gandalf sings about it in the TT. Could it be that Lorien in ME was fairer than that of Valinor after the death of the two Trees? It is obvious that Galadriel had made as a memorial by what she saw before the two trees died. 2.) Was lothlorien more fairer than Doriath? 3.) Before Celeborn & Galadriel dwelt in Lorien, the silvan elves that lived there were plenty in numbers & they were happy & free even w/out Galadriel, but at the war of the ring, Lorinand was changed to Lothlorien due to the adjustments that Galadriel had worked via Nenya. So everyone was happy go lucky until the destruction of the One & all things contrived by the Three began to fade. So by the time Arwen lays herself in Cerin Amroth, why was it deserted? If the silvan folks of lorien were happy even before Galadriel & her usage of Nenya, why desert the Mallorns, & why sing no more... & the light fade? __________________ I am Annatar, the Lord of Gifts.

01-15-2005, 12:45 PM	#2
Michael Wilhelmson Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: IL Posts: 16	For your questions: 1. The trees of Lorien ME were immortal, just as the ones of valinor, by the power of Nenya to alter time. Valinor's Lorien was spoiled by Ungoliath and Morgoth, and thus is reduced in beauty. However, the ME Lorien was unspoiled excepting periodic invasions, and all of these were defended against. Just as Valinor declined in beauty upon the destruction of the trees, the perfection of Lorien upon its creation was preserved and added to when Nenya was introduced. Thus, the immortal Lorien in mortal ME must be fairer than the despoiled Lorien in Valinor. 2. I will need to consult the book on this, as I would expect such a question to be answered in a song. 3. First, the time of the elves is over in Middle Earth, the passing of an age (One might ask why the dwarves did not resurface as the world was made safe again.) Second, perhaps the Sindar there had been tempted to the light of the trees and the Noldor king and queen as had the Eldar before. The light of Galadriel may have attracted the forest Elves just as the light of Valinor drew the High Elves across the sea. __________________ Horseman of the plains

01-16-2005, 07:02 AM	#4
Michael Wilhelmson Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: IL Posts: 16	In the Appendices, Tolkien says that two foreign trees were introduced to Middle-Earth- The White Tree of Numenor, and the Mallorn of Lorien. Both of these trees resemble the Two that existed in Valinor, and are mortal versions of the darkened trees. Lady Galariel could easily have brought the mallorn itself to Middle-Earth, just as the kings of Numenor were gifted the White tree from the valar. __________________ Horseman of the plains

01-20-2005, 07:52 AM	#6
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I, with my small knowledge, shall now come and interrupt your peace and harmony Because I disagree with you all. I think that Lórien of Valinor was fairer. It was in Valinor. The reason might sound stupid, but in Valinor all was basicly more beautiful. Nothing never died there (except some elves, but we won't discuss it now). The Valar, Lórien and Estë lived there. I suppose that they had more power to make their Lórien beautiful than Galadriel had with Nenya. And all the light didn't go with the two trees; the sun came, and the moon. And they stayed in Valinor longer than in Middle-Earth. So I can't see any reason why Galadriel's Lórien would have been more beutiful than Lórien of Valinor.