The Dior Dilemma

[Lalaith]

Ok, we've all been talking about the half-elven problem. People have said that Dior wasn't an issue because he died before he had to make the choice.
But where did he go when died? Did he go to the Halls of Mandos or did he suffer the unknown fate of men?
I'd always assumed he'd been counted as an elf, he was married to one, ruled over them and so on.
But maybe some of our half-elven experts have other ideas.
Oh, and what about the sons of Dior who were left to die in the wilderness? Would they have gone to Mandos too? Poor little things... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Findegil]

Dior was was a Man, and his mother already sheared the Doom of Man when he was recieved and born. So I assume he was a Man and sheared the Doom of Man.

His children were Half-Elven. Elwing had the choice granted by Manwe. Her brethern died eraly in childhood. And were never again mentioned. So we do not know what happend to thier fear.

Since at the ende of the Frist Age Manwe decleared that hence forward any child that had a share of human blood how ever small should recive the gift of man, if not granted other wiese, I think that Elured and Elurin where counted among mankind.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arwen_Evenstar]

I havent read the Sil. for a while, but i was wondering, dont ALL beings, men and elves go to the halls of Mandos? Or just elves?

[lindil]

According to the Silm - Men go there briefly, before in some manner unknown to Elves, pass to some place of Eru's choosing beyond the confines of the Circles of the World.

Whether obscure aspects of HoME offer a different view I do not off-hand recall.

The Athrabeth (HoM-E X) would be a likely place to look, as would the MT chapters at the end of the Book.

[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Ailios]

Is really Dior 100% man? In that case the marriage Dior-Nimloth (or Lindis) would be the fourth union between elves and men. Where is it mentioned that he is a man? Arwen parents were elves and she became mortal.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

The way to label Dior, Elured, Elurin, Elwing and Earendil, as well as Elrond and Elros is as Peredhil. They were half-elven, and in a sense, perhaps, half-elven humans, and pending some pronouncement of fate by Manwe to the contrary, they were bound by the fate of mortality within the World.

Presumably, they were immune to sickness and common decay, and would be exceptionally long-lived and vigorous to the end. Dior might have lived a thousand years, conceivably, seeing as Elros lasted 500. But the presence of mortal blood (in the non-genetic sense) would mean that their spirits were not bound to this World and could not sustain the corpus indefinitely from the ravages of Time, hence age and death, and the departure of that spirit from the Circles of the World, after a period of waiting in the Halls of Mandos.

For the first three listed above, the question of a choice from Manwe never happened, and sadly, there was no such chance. Even Dior had a short life by the measure of Men. So, we can really never know. So, Dior & Nimloth was thus a pairing of Peredhil and Elf.

For the others, who had a choice, they still remained Peredhil, and could choose, and in three cases, chose to have the life and fate of the Firstborn.

Arguably, Arwen and Aragorn was technically not a pairing of Elf and Man. Aragorn's non-human ancestry was so remote as to be meaningless, but Arwen (and her brothers) were still half-elven. But for all intents and purposes she was a Elf when they married. Her human ancestry was only 3/16, and she had lived nearly three thousand years, already, as a Quendi.

[Legolas]

But for all intents and purposes she was a Elf when they married.

Arwen was not an elf any you look at it. She was a half-elf who had not yet abandoned her Elvish rights.

Is really Dior 100% man?

No. 1/4 Sinda, 1/4 Ainu, 1/2 Man.

Arwen parents were elves and she became mortal.

No, they weren't. Celebrian was an elf; Elrond was a half-elf.

Dior was mortal, though. Before the family of Earendil/Elwing, all beings with any amount of mortal blood were mortal. This also remained true for any beings afterwards (aside from Earendil/Elwing's descendants).

[ April 10, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Salocin]

The sons (and daughter) of Elrond were given the same choice Elrond and Elros were given. His sons chose to be elves and went with their father, but Arwen chose to be mortal and stayed with Aragorn.

[The Saucepan Man]

His sons chose to be elves and went with their father

That's a pretty controversial thing to say around here, isn't it?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Very!

We know that the twins did not accompany their father oversea at the end of the Third Age but continued to live in Rivendell for many years thereafter, joined eventually by their grandfather Celeborn.

There is some controversy over their final choice, they may have eventually followed their father into the West but I personally am inclined to believe they chose to be accounted as Men and died in Middle Earth. The question is however quite open as Tolkien never actually says what their choice was.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I agree with Morwen T about the twins. (I think BD-"Legolas" needs a surname like Morwen T to avoid confusion with references to Legolas, the character).

A few posts above, Lindil quotes me out of context. Shame. I had just said that technically Arwen was a Peredhil and not an Elf per se. But with the qualification of "for all intents and purposes" is to say that she was indeed like an Elf at the point of her marriage, which one must accept in order to make sense of JRRT's listing of Aragorn and Arwen as one of the three pairings of Man and Eldar.

[Elmo]

Do you really think Tolkien, a devoted family man, would have Nimloth forever separated from her baby children in the after life forever?

[Lalaith]

Ah, thanks for digging up this old thing, hewhoarisesinmight...(what do they call you for short, btw?)
Now you've got me worritting about those poor babies again.

I found this on Wikipedia...

Tradition among the Nandor of Ossiriand held that they were led to the safety of the woodlands by birds and beasts, and survived.

Never heard that before. Can anyone elucidate?

[Elmo]

what do they call you for short, btw?

That idiot mostly no I think I once was called He Who either that or hwain's fine

[The Might]

Well, I've looked through the thread and noticed nobody gave any quotes on this so I will:

"Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. "
(Letter #153)

' Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredil
(Half-elven), but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.' (HOME XII)

"Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor
dwelt in Gondolin; and children then had Dior the Elf," (The Book of the Lost Tales II)

'Dior the Elf' is an emendation from 'Dior then an aged Elf'. (The Book of the Lost Tales II)

Well, as seen above in the first writings on this topic Tolkien considered him an Elf clearly.
In later writings this becomes unclear. The quote from Letter #153 shows that Dior was given this choice. The question remaining is which choice did he make.

Considering what we know about him, I personally see him as an Elf. We know he was named "Thingol's Heir", and he was King of Doriath. I doubt the Elves would have accepted a Man as their ruler, even if he was the rightful heir to the throne. Also, there is one other example of a Half-Elf that rules over Elves - Elrond - and it is well known which choice he made.