Of another world - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legolas in spandex · 04-13-2006, 06:39 PM

I have NO idea where to post this, therefore I am posting this here and if anyone feels obliged to move this, than feel free to do so.Okay, I have been told and have guessed that by Gandalf returning from a death that was hardly a death, Tolkien was representing Jesus in some manner. However, I find a greater representation of ideas of the Christian faith by means of the elves.Think about it carefully. The elves were of the most angelic beings who watched the world go by; they watched it begin to fall. They mourned because of the fact that they weren't of the world of Middle-Earth, and they longed for their land across the sea.This is a perfect representation of the "ideal" Christian. Christians in their faith are not of this world in that they belong to the kingdom of God-their land across the sea where they may exist forever. No, we don't live for thousands of years, but Christians watch the world fall in its sinful pleasure or when it becomes of darkness by its rulers i.e presidents, etc. Also, in the Silmarillion, from what I have read so far, it reminds me very much of the clash of God and Satan. Melkor wished for something that was not his-the newly created world. Satan wanted to rule over God.Melkor desired himself to be in place of Iluvatar. Melkor sang out against Iluvatar-Satan tempted god w/ music. Satan tries to destroy good. Melkor undid the creations of the Valar. I saw a pretty good relationship between the two ideas. Anyone else see these things?

Inziladun · 04-13-2006, 07:18 PM

Well, I don't recall ever hearing that Gandalf's return was intended by Tolkien to reflect the Resurrection. Gandalf did not sacrifice himself for the remission of sin: he did it because he was the only one in Moria capable of facing the Balrog. He was sent back because his task was not complete: the overthrow of Sauron, which only he was capable of effectively organizing.
As for the Elves representing angels, the 'angels' in the world were the Valar and the Maia. The Elves were not forced to remain in mortal lands. During the time of LOTR they could pass to the Blessed Realm at any time they chose.Therefore their sadness and longing for the Immortal Shores was self-induced.
As for the parallels between the Ainulindalë and creation, I certainly see them. Whether they were intentional or not I don't know if Tolkien explicitly said.

Legolas in spandex · 04-13-2006, 07:36 PM

I did not say the elves represent angels, but I see your point . i said the elves were angelic yes...

Glirdan · 04-13-2006, 08:02 PM

Ooo!! Finally! Someone else who sees the biblical representation!! YAY!! Here's a link to the thread I started up awhile back. It was basically devoted to talk about any symbolic representations that you could find in any of the books. Now I and many others have already stated our thoughts on any of these subjects, so feel free to start it back up again.

littlemanpoet · 04-13-2006, 08:42 PM

I remember reading magazine articles way back in the early 1970s about how Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn were "Christ figures". So it seemed to many of us in that first heady rush way back when the books really took off for the first time in America. And so it often seems to many who come to Tolkien for the first time these days.

I used to think it was obvious that they were Christ figures. But I've learned a lot about myths and myth making since I first read those articles, and I've discovered that, even though such connections can be drawn, it doens't tell us the whole story about these characters.

Gandalf is an incarnated angel. The Sil tells us that. He dies while killing a Balrog, then Eru brings him back to life and reassigns him the same task he had, only at a higher level. So far so good. But Gandalf is not saying, "I am the way".

Frodo carries the burden of the Ring. This reminds us of the burden of our sins that Jesus carried on the cross. But Frodo in the end said "I will not do what I came to do." One cannot (honestly) conceive of Jesus saying that! It takes Gollum biting Frodo's finger off to get the Ring into the Fires. Frodo is thus wounded for life and does not experience resurrection; rather, he must go to Tol Eressëa to receive healing.

Aragorn is the promised and expected King who will take back his throne. He is virtually a chosen one. But he dies in the end and passes his crown to a son.

Sauron is the Dark Lord, the mover of great evils in the world. However, he is not responsible for every evil in the world. Nor is he a spirit who puts tempting thoughts in the minds of ordinary folks.

So yes, there are many harmonies between LotR and Christian faith. This is no surprise, since Tolkien was a Christian. But they are harmonies only, not direct linkages.

The Silmarillion, it seems to me, is a different kind of story. Eru resembles the Christian God in every way except for (1) the Trinity; (2) being directly involved with a chosen people. If Tolkien had included these two specific things in his story, it would have ceased to be a story unto itself, and would have been a mere retelling of biblical history. Obviously, Tolkien didn't want that. Nevertheless, there are even more harmonies between Christianity and the Sil than there are between Christianity and LotR.

Other members of the Downs will contend with great erudition that the Sil and LotR are no more Christian than they are Buddhist, Pagan, or what have you. I think they have a difficult case, though, seeing as Tolkien himself was Christian, and stated that LotR was consciously Christian in the revision.

Aiwendil · 04-13-2006, 09:40 PM

Littlemanpoet wrote:

Quote:

The Silmarillion, it seems to me, is a different kind of story. Eru resembles the Christian God in every way except for (1) the Trinity; (2) being directly involved with a chosen people.

True, but I would point out:

1. I think it is possible to find a Trinity in the Legendarium:

Father = Eru
Son = Eventual incarnation hinted at in "Athrabeth"
Holy Spirit = Flame Imperishable

This has been touched on before, for example here.

2. The events depicted in the Silmarillion and LotR are apparently supposed to be pre-Judaic. It seems quite plausible that we are merely seeing in the Legendarium a stage in history before Eru establishes his covenant with a chosen people.

davem · 04-14-2006, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Other members of the Downs will contend with great erudition that the Sil and LotR are no more Christian than they are Buddhist, Pagan, or what have you. I think they have a difficult case, though, seeing as Tolkien himself was Christian, and stated that LotR was consciously Christian in the revision.

I've stated before that the whole 'consciously so in the revision' thing, its simply not sustainable. I'm not saying Tolkien was lying - I'm sure he believed that - but if you can find any examples in HoM-e vols 6-9 where the revised LotR is more obviously Christian in form or content than the earlier drafts please show me them. In the Letters in particular we see Tolkien on the defensive a great deal of the time, being challenged by Christian readers on the orthodoxy of many elements of the story. Tolkien is clearly thinking in his feet in many of those letters & attempting to convince himself as much as his correspondents of the Christianity of his story.

As to finding clear & obvious 'Christian' elements/themes in the story. I suppose you can, but only if you know nothing of myth & fairy story. Incarnate spiritual/magical beings who die & are resurrected are legion - Odin, Osiris, Leminkainen, Llew Llaw Gyffes. The victory of the small insignificant youngest son achieved through an act of kindness to another, the lost King who returns to save his people - all these themes are commonplace in non-Christian traditions.

I'm reminded of an anecdote in 'The People's Guide to Tolkien'. The writer relates seeing a grandmother with her grandson in a bookshop, pointing out LotR & telling him he should read it, because it was a Christian book & would do him good.

04-13-2006, 06:39 PM	#1
Legolas in spandex Wight Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 102	Of another world I have NO idea where to post this, therefore I am posting this here and if anyone feels obliged to move this, than feel free to do so.Okay, I have been told and have guessed that by Gandalf returning from a death that was hardly a death, Tolkien was representing Jesus in some manner. However, I find a greater representation of ideas of the Christian faith by means of the elves.Think about it carefully. The elves were of the most angelic beings who watched the world go by; they watched it begin to fall. They mourned because of the fact that they weren't of the world of Middle-Earth, and they longed for their land across the sea.This is a perfect representation of the "ideal" Christian. Christians in their faith are not of this world in that they belong to the kingdom of God-their land across the sea where they may exist forever. No, we don't live for thousands of years, but Christians watch the world fall in its sinful pleasure or when it becomes of darkness by its rulers i.e presidents, etc. Also, in the Silmarillion, from what I have read so far, it reminds me very much of the clash of God and Satan. Melkor wished for something that was not his-the newly created world. Satan wanted to rule over God.Melkor desired himself to be in place of Iluvatar. Melkor sang out against Iluvatar-Satan tempted god w/ music. Satan tries to destroy good. Melkor undid the creations of the Valar. I saw a pretty good relationship between the two ideas. Anyone else see these things? __________________ "I want to die in my sleep, like my grandfather... not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car."

04-13-2006, 07:18 PM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,035	Well, I don't recall ever hearing that Gandalf's return was intended by Tolkien to reflect the Resurrection. Gandalf did not sacrifice himself for the remission of sin: he did it because he was the only one in Moria capable of facing the Balrog. He was sent back because his task was not complete: the overthrow of Sauron, which only he was capable of effectively organizing. As for the Elves representing angels, the 'angels' in the world were the Valar and the Maia. The Elves were not forced to remain in mortal lands. During the time of LOTR they could pass to the Blessed Realm at any time they chose.Therefore their sadness and longing for the Immortal Shores was self-induced. As for the parallels between the Ainulindalë and creation, I certainly see them. Whether they were intentional or not I don't know if Tolkien explicitly said. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

04-13-2006, 07:36 PM	#3
Legolas in spandex Wight Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 102	I did not say the elves represent angels, but I see your point . i said the elves were angelic yes... __________________ "I want to die in my sleep, like my grandfather... not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car."

04-13-2006, 08:02 PM	#4
Glirdan Energetic Essence Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Where Lark Nor Eagle Ever Flew Posts: 3,285	Ooo!! Finally! Someone else who sees the biblical representation!! YAY!! Here's a link to the thread I started up awhile back. It was basically devoted to talk about any symbolic representations that you could find in any of the books. Now I and many others have already stated our thoughts on any of these subjects, so feel free to start it back up again. __________________ *I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face!* Fenris Wolf

04-13-2006, 08:42 PM	#5
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I remember reading magazine articles way back in the early 1970s about how Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn were "Christ figures". So it seemed to many of us in that first heady rush way back when the books really took off for the first time in America. And so it often seems to many who come to Tolkien for the first time these days. I used to think it was obvious that they were Christ figures. But I've learned a lot about myths and myth making since I first read those articles, and I've discovered that, even though such connections can be drawn, it doens't tell us the whole story about these characters. Gandalf is an incarnated angel. The Sil tells us that. He dies while killing a Balrog, then Eru brings him back to life and reassigns him the same task he had, only at a higher level. So far so good. But Gandalf is not saying, "I am the way". Frodo carries the burden of the Ring. This reminds us of the burden of our sins that Jesus carried on the cross. But Frodo in the end said "I will not do what I came to do." One cannot (honestly) conceive of Jesus saying that! It takes Gollum biting Frodo's finger off to get the Ring into the Fires. Frodo is thus wounded for life and does not experience resurrection; rather, he must go to Tol Eressëa to receive healing. Aragorn is the promised and expected King who will take back his throne. He is virtually a chosen one. But he dies in the end and passes his crown to a son. Sauron is the Dark Lord, the mover of great evils in the world. However, he is not responsible for every evil in the world. Nor is he a spirit who puts tempting thoughts in the minds of ordinary folks. So yes, there are many harmonies between LotR and Christian faith. This is no surprise, since Tolkien was a Christian. But they are harmonies only, not direct linkages. The Silmarillion, it seems to me, is a different kind of story. Eru resembles the Christian God in every way except for (1) the Trinity; (2) being directly involved with a chosen people. If Tolkien had included these two specific things in his story, it would have ceased to be a story unto itself, and would have been a mere retelling of biblical history. Obviously, Tolkien didn't want that. Nevertheless, there are even more harmonies between Christianity and the Sil than there are between Christianity and LotR. Other members of the Downs will contend with great erudition that the Sil and LotR are no more Christian than they are Buddhist, Pagan, or what have you. I think they have a difficult case, though, seeing as Tolkien himself was Christian, and stated that LotR was consciously Christian in the revision. Last edited by littlemanpoet; 04-14-2006 at 09:23 PM.